Battle of Wisconsin

[Aramike]

yes, states are running out of money, but for the wrong reasons. Taxpayers are losing shares of the wealth and income. where there used to be more taxes to be had because more people spread out had more money, now the tax base has dried up.

Gimpy, I'm sorry to have to say it like this, but that's simply absurd - because it makes no sense.

The reason states are running out of money is simple: spending is outpacing growth. It has nothing to do with the distribution of weath. IN FACT, concentrating wealth into a higher tax bracket would have the opposite effect of what you're stating. A billion dollars of income spread out over 25,000 middle class taxpayers would actually yield LESS revenue than it being concentrated into the upper tax brackets. Why? Because that same sum is being taxed at a much higher rate.

One COULD argue that more income spread out over the middle class would yield higher sales tax revenues, yet states aren't going broke because of sales taxes, as most states derive revenue from INCOME, while municipalities derive receive the benefits of sales taxes.

In other words, that's an old liberal argument that most liberals are content to repeat but never analyze. You can argue about the merits of a greater separation between the rich and the poor, but when it comes to state revenues, it's not related.

Unfortunately, I feel as if its being shifted upon the middle class most of the burden of these recovery bills. Why? because money wins again.

Which recovery bill is that? Because most recovery bills actually remove some of the burden FROM the middle class by requiring the SMALL percentage of middle class to actually contribute at a more mainstream rate (which is STILL better than what most of the middle class has to deal with).

Or are "ultra-liberal-union middle-class" more "middle class" than the rest of that classification, who are in the VAST majority?

Call t unfair or whatever, But if you need water from a sponge, it makes sense to get some out of the saturated one before you go try to wring the last few little drops out of the one thats only damp at best.

Interesting analogy.

In any case, the saturated sponge here are public employees, whereas the damp one is the rest of us.

You do know that you cannot tax money that has ALREADY been taxed as income, right? That's confiscation. And what happens when you raise taxes on high end incomes and they simply leave the state? So you went from 30% to 45% in income tax revenue. Now that person/business leaves to a more friendly tax environment. Now you just went from 45% to 0% revenue.

Good work. Now the middle class has to pay even more.

PS: Nice pic, gimpy. Now please explain to me why the far left can't use logic and numbers to illustrate their points but ONLY use bumpersticker slogans and 3 line sarcasm?

[August]

Originally Posted by Aramike

Now please explain to me why the far left can't use logic and numbers to illustrate their points but ONLY use bumpersticker slogans and 3 line sarcasm?

Good luck with that. He still hasn't addressed the greedy union snow plow drivers of Racine story that this thread was all about.

[Aramike]

Here's a great article mathematically breaking down the misguided notion that taxing corporations is the answer: http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk...ion-a-day.html

An excerpt:

So let's all sit down together as an American family with a calendar and make a yearly budget. First, let's lock in the $3.7 trillion of critical family spending priorities; now let's get to work on collecting the pay-as-we-go $10 billion daily cash flow we need.

12:01 AM, January 1
Let's start the year out right by going after some evil corporations and their obscene profits. And who is more evil than those twin spawns of Lucifer himself, Exxon Mobil and Walmart? Together these two largest American industrial behemoths raked in, between them, $34 billion in 2010 global profits. Let's teach 'em both a lesson and confiscate it for the public good. This will get us through...

9:52 AM January 4
Okay, maybe I underestimated our take. But we shouldn't let Exxon and Walmart distract us from all those other corporate profiteers out there worth shaking down. In fact, why don't we grab every cent of 2010 profit made by the other 498 members of the Fortune 500? That will net us another, let's see, $357 billion! Enough to get us to...

2:00 AM February 9
So we're running out of corporate cash, but look - it's Super Bowl time! As we all know, the game has become a crass disgusting festival of commercialism. So let's take all the TV ad money spent on stupid Super Bowl ads, and apply that to government needs. That would be $250 million, enough to fund us for, let's see... 36 minutes. The half time show, at least. But why stop there? Let's take every cent of ad money spent on all 45 Super Bowls, a cool $5 billion, which would cover us until...

[gimpy117]

-See I don't think you are completely correct when you say spending has outpaced growth. There has been downturn in the economy and more people are losing their jobs. at least here in MI. No jobs means no taxes.

-Also, How are we not losing a share in the economy? Have you sen the growth in the top percents of income? that money has to come from somewhere.

-tax some of the middle class more? Ok fine...but where are the taxes for the upper class? or the corporations. they're giving them huge concessions under the guise of "stimulating business" that works marginally well at best...but its a nice republican fantasy.

-greedy snowplow drivers? Ha ha. They often get paid so much because they get a lot of overtime. if the unions are the saturated sponge what do you call corporate interests? a super tanker? a flood. But it figures that you republicans keep pointing the finger to the public sector. I think this problem is bigger than just unions but that was never the point. It was always about union busting, the GOP has be waiting for this moment to use panic to push their ideas, they did it after 911 and they're using this as their own economic 911.

[Aramike]

-See I don't think you are completely correct when you say spending has outpaced growth. There has been downturn in the economy and more people are losing their jobs. at least here in MI. No jobs means no taxes.

Huh? This isn't about what you think - this is about facts.

Again, there are actual numbers involved here - not just what you "think" is happening.

Over the last two years the average economic growth rate (GDP) was a shade under 3%. However, government spending has increased either 18% or 22% (depending on whether or not you count debt service reduction).

So really?

Indeed, lower employ does lower the tax base - but that wouldn't matter if spending and growth were even. Because even though there are more people without jobs, the pace of spending would coincide with the growth.

We are in an era where there is economic growth but it's only a shade over inflation (although I would suggest that inflation is higher than one would be led to think due to energy and food being not included in the numbers).

-Also, How are we not losing a share in the economy? Have you sen the growth in the top percents of income? that money has to come from somewhere.

Actually, judging by your complete lack of numbers, I suspect that YOU haven't seen what you're referring to.

[nikimcbee]

34 billion for 2 companies? Mine made 40 billion for 2010 (record) [winning] woot! woot!

Nevermind the cheezewhiz, we're having caviar tonight! Old Milwaukee is on the house.


Regarding inflation, milk prices just went up 10 more cents.

[nikimcbee]

Mike, What ever happened to Gov. Thompson? Is he still in state (Wi) politics?

[August]

Originally Posted by gimpy117

-greedy snowplow drivers? Ha ha. They often get paid so much because they get a lot of overtime.

That is got to be one of the more comical displays of ignorance I've seen on this forum in awhile. Maybe you should go back and read the op before you embarrass yourself even more.

[Aramike]

Originally Posted by nikimcbee

Mike, What ever happened to Gov. Thompson? Is he still in state (Wi) politics?

Ha! Good 'Ol Tommy's still around. For every major policital seat in Wisconsin that opens up, his name is tossed around (a perception he feeds) until he ultimately bows out.

But he's still a well-regarded Republican, although he really doesn't have much in the way of any official capacity.

[Aramike]

Originally Posted by nikimcbee

34 billion for 2 companies? Mine made 40 billion for 2010 (record) [winning] woot! woot!

Nevermind the cheezewhiz, we're having caviar tonight! Old Milwaukee is on the house.


Regarding inflation, milk prices just went up 10 more cents.

No Milwaukee's Be(a)st?

[Growler]

Originally Posted by Aramike

No Milwaukee's Be(a)st?

*sigh*

And this conversation had been going so well...

[Aramike]

Originally Posted by Growler

*sigh*

And this conversation had been going so well...

Heh, I'm a Stella guy myself. Miller Lite for the easy nights.

[Growler]

Originally Posted by Aramike

Heh, I'm a Stella guy myself. Miller Lite for the easy nights.

Well, one outa two ain't bad - Stella's my girl; I'll save that blue-collar union swill (Miller Lite) for you.

[gimpy117]

Originally Posted by August

That is got to be one of the more comical displays of ignorance I've seen on this forum in awhile. Maybe you should go back and read the op before you embarrass yourself even more.

so I'm wrong about that. They wanted to make sure their jobs weren't edged. The point still stands though. People complain how much money bus drivers make and say its union pork. Its just because plow drivers and school bus drivers get a lot of overtime. I read some article about about the issue. Thought thats what you were referring to anyways.

I don't think it's Greedy at all to make sure you aren't having your work taken away. Obviously there was some reason for the grievance.

[August]

Originally Posted by gimpy117

Obviously there was some reason for the grievance.

Well yeah gimpy, union greed. If there is another explanation i'd be interested in hearing it.