Israel... Why them???

[Abraham]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

BS, as far as I'm concerned, if the Jews want to carve a similar slice out of Texas and give up the Holy Land, I'd welcome them. And the neighbors (Mexico) are a helluva lot better people.

Good one. Shows the mentality to solve conflicts instead of creating them...

Originally Posted by Kissaki

Ok, imagine this, then. The UN decide to give the Palestinians (who were forced out of today's Israel) a holy land in Texas, and the Texans in that slice of land had to move. A tiny piece, but how'd you feel?

But you know that this is only half the truth.
You forgot about all the other Jews from all over the US moving towards that tiny slice of desert, often forcibly kicked out by other Americans. But instead of those Texans taking the Jewish houses all over the US, the State of Texas puts them in refugee camps around the tiny slice and none of the other US States want to accept them so they end up getting multi-million dollar refugee subsidies from the UN for doing nothing but complaining about the tiny slice.
In the meantime the Jews take the slice of Texan desert and make it fertile and prosporous.
Only then the US starts whining about the Jewish "occupation" of "American" land.
And uh... don't forget to throw into the equation that the Jews are of course an Indian tribe that happened to live in the Texas area long before European colonisation.

[Kissaki]

Originally Posted by Abraham

But you know that this is only half the truth.
You forgot about all the other Jews from all over the US moving towards that tiny slice of desert, often forcibly kicked out by other Americans. But instead of those Texans taking the Jewish houses all over the US, the State of Texas puts them in refugee camps around the tiny slice and none of the other US States want to accept them so they end up getting multi-million dollar refugee subsidies from the UN for doing nothing but complaining about the tiny slice.
In the meantime the Jews take the slice of Texan desert and make it fertile and prosporous.
Only then the US starts whining about the Jewish "occupation" of "American" land.
And uh... don't forget to throw into the equation that the Jews are of course an Indian tribe that happened to live in the Texas area long before European colonisation.

But this of course will pave the way for a radical right-wing party whose claim it is that the top of the capitalist pyramid is run by money-hungry Jews. The party's leader, who's not even a US citizen but Canadian, rapidly usurps the political ranks and promises to get America out of the deficit it's currently in. A deficit for which the Jews of course are responsible. The culmination comes about when the White House mysteriously is set ablaze, and the blame naturally falls on the Jews. This gives the Canadian upstart an excuse to get a motion passed which renders the system of checks and balances null and void, as it's easier to fix something if one's hands aren't tied.

To reduce corruption, Jews are consequently restricted from governmental positions, and to prevent them spreading all out of control they are also barred from marrying non-Jews. The inevitable conclusion, however, is that the Jews have to go. Anywhere, but not here. For some reason the Jews, wanting to leave, are bogged down in red tape, and those settling down in the neighbouring countries get something of a raw deal because:

Canada, impressed by what their countryman has achieved in the US, naturally wants to be part of this new Great America, which also expands south to include the Sudeten-Americans in Mexico. Guantanamo Base must also be "liberated", because it's trapped on the other side of the Corridor (Cuba). By now the non-aggression pact with Europe starts to look shaky (which was formed when the US and Europe decided to get Iraq together - the UN had said, "do not attack Iraq or else", but as it turned out didn't lift a finger), especially since the UN has just allowed the US to annex left and right as they please. And true enough, the Americans are eventually fed up with the "Euro-trash" across the pond, and so they prepare for military operations on the Eastern front.

Meanwhile, the Jews aren't quite getting out fast enough for the Americans, and what do you know, Canada and Mexico were also infested with Jews. So they are forced into ghettoes at first, but when that doesn't work they're stowed into reservation-camps along with other undesirables (cherokees, iroquis, navajo etc.). The EU hears the reports but shrugs and says, "that's not my pigeon".

And now the stage is set for terriffic uboat battle in the Atlantic.

[Abraham]

You have a real funny way getting out of a trap when you're cornered in a discussion!
:rotfl:

[Kissaki]

Originally Posted by Abraham

You have a real funny way getting out of a trap when you're cornered in a discussion!
:rotfl:

I actually thought that's what you were doing...

[Abraham]

Originally Posted by Kissaki

I actually thought that's what you were doing...

Ha, sounds nice but is not true, I just stepped in the discussion.

But what is your problem with Israel, if any? Do you doubt it's right of existense?
Just a question.

[Happy Times]

What was the area of Israel before the Jewish started to move back? A feudal culture with some dirtpoor peasants growing almondtrees and herding sheep. Some Mufti in Damascus or Kairo took their share of the small profits. Then came the "evil" zionists and bought the crabbiest land from the land owners with overprize. The arabs thought they wouldn last long. But they did well with their irrigation and modern agriculture. So they were jelleous of their succes and the seed of conflict was planted. Same attitude can be seen in their culture in present time. They allways see that everything is someone elses fault, usually Zionists and the West. Some of them have become incredibly wealthy do to natural riches=oil. But they prefer to buy their products and services from abroad, instead of creating their own production and education. They cant get their fighterplanes up but can steer commercial liners after takeoff into buildings

[Kissaki]

Originally Posted by Happy Times

Then came the "evil" zionists and bought the crabbiest land from the land owners with overprize.

You mean the purchase of land from absent landlords and the subsequent eviction of the Palestinians who lived there? Can't imagine what they were sore about

[Abraham]

Originally Posted by Happy Times

What was the area of Israel before the Jewish started to move back? A feudal culture with some dirtpoor peasants growing almondtrees and herding sheep. Some Mufti in Damascus or Kairo took their share of the small profits.

About 600.000 Arabs according to the first British census around 1920 in the whole of Palestine (incl. West Bank & Gaza Strip); which means that the land was practically empty, apart from a few cities.

Originally Posted by Happy Times

Then came the "evil" zionists and bought the crabbiest land from the land owners with overprize. The arabs thought they wouldn last long. But they did well with their irrigation and modern agriculture.

Not many know that the Zionistic agricultural activities created an immigration of poor Arab peasants to Palestine of 60.000 (10%) between 1920 and 1930. That was allowed by Britain (the colonial power) but in the same period Britain imposed immigration rules to keep the Jewish population artificially low. Otherwise there would have been a Jewish majority in Paslestine in the late '30s...

[Happy Times]

Originally Posted by Kissaki

You mean the purchase of land from absent landlords and the subsequent eviction of the Palestinians who lived there? Can't imagine what they were sore about

Well thats not the Jews fault if their "masters" decided to sell And when the war of independence started many left of free will bacause they thought the Jews would be massacred and driven away. If i was Jewish, wouldn let that kind of people to return, would you?

[Kissaki]

Originally Posted by Abraham

Ha, sounds nice but is not true, I just stepped in the discussion.

But what is your problem with Israel, if any? Do you doubt it's right of existense?
Just a question.

I thought you made a humorous comment to diffuse the thread.

But anyway, since you ask, I'll answer:

It was wrong, two milenniums ago, to force the Jews from their lands. It was also wrong, however, to establish the British Mandate of Palestine, granting the Jews access back to their promised land. The Palestinians lived there now, regardless of ancient history, and two wrongs do not make a right. They didn't start minding until anti-semittism flared up again in Europe, however, and the Jews arrived in Israel in great numbers. It was then further wrong to buy more lands without the Palestinian people's consent (the landlords, who didn't even live there, what did they care?), and kick them out subsequently. And now, it is wrong to expect the Israelites to leave their homes for the Palestinians, because that's Israeli land now, and two wrongs do not make a right.

But the occupation of the West Bank and of the Gaza strip (until just recently, anyway) was the main point of contention, anyway. The Palestinians were not the only ones to view that military occupation as illegal.

[Happy Times]

[/quote]Not many know that the Zionistic agricultural activities created an immigration of poor Arab peasants to Palestine of 60.000 (10%) between 1920 and 1930. That was allowed by Britain (the colonial power) but in the same period Britain imposed immigration rules to keep the Jewish population artificially low. Otherwise there would have been a Jewish majority in Paslestine in the late '30s[quote] Yeah and because of that "Palestians" of today are a collection of these dirtpoor peasents from surrounding countries. They are a political tool artificially inseminated by the arab countries and the muslim world.

[Kissaki]

I managed to dig up a quote made in 1907 by the then British Prime Minister Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman:

There are people who control spacious territories teeming with manifest and hidden resources. They dominate the intersections of world routes. Their lands were the cradle of human civilizations and religions.

These people have one faith, one language, one history and the same aspirations.

No natural barriers can isolate these people from one another... if per chance, this nation were to be unified into one state, it would then take the fate of the world into its hands and would separate Europe from the rest of the world.

Taking these considerations seriously, a foreign body should be planted in the heart of this nation to prevent the convergence of its wings in such a way that it could exhaust its powers in never-ending wars. It could also serve as a springboard for the West to gain its coveted objects.

[Happy Times]

Originally Posted by Kissaki

I managed to dig up a quote made in 1907 by the then British Prime Minister Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman:

Sounds like a wise man

[Abraham]

The whole problem is really a result of colonialism.

Palestine (including what is now Jordan) was promised to the Jews as a "National Home" in the Balfour Declaration (1917) by Britain, the ruling colonial power that got the Protectorate through the League of Nations. This promise was made for a strange variety of reasons. Britain first split Transjordan and gave it to Sheikh Abdullah, the grandfather of the late king Hussein. Then it promised the Arabs that there would never be a Jewish majority in what was left as/of Palestine.
In the end Britain couldn't keep it's first promise nor it's last and everybody was upset...

Finally, in 1948, the successor of the League of Nations, the U.N., decided to divide the country in equal Jewish and Arab parts and an international zone. This was accepted by the Jews and rejected by the Arabs, who started a war (War of Independence) in which they were beaten and Israel was actually enlarged.

This war caused huge refugee problems on both sides. Between 500.000 (Israel) and 725.000 Arabs left voluntarily or were forced out of the war zone and did not return. About 160.000 stayed or returned. In the aftermath of the war 580.000 Jews left Arab countries, often as refugees with their business and belongings being confiscated and immigrated to Israel, where they started a new life.
The Arab leaders on the contrary refused to settle the Arab refugees and put them in huge refugee camps, run by the UN (UNWRA) to keep political pressure upon Israel. This has been an extremely effective policy from a political point of view.

I noticed one of the messages on this thread stated that there was racism on Subsim. Well the bottom line is that you are entitled to express your opinion in this world no matter what it is. It is part of your "freedom of expression" rights. So it's just plain tough if someone doesn't like your opinion on a matter here on the forum or in the world. Acutually if another person doesn't like your opinion then it's really their problem and not yours. A lot of people gave their lives so that you could have your "freedom of expression".