Dresden marks anniversary of WWII bombings

Why? Well it's good to actually get 'another side' to this, and not just a whole lot of 'well, that's war, it happens, people will lose their lives but what can you do' attitudes.

But it is like getting Ian Huntley to criticise Ian Brady

[Oberon]

This thread does seem to have started from the outset as an attack on the Allied forces and their leadership as opposed to a commemoration of the lives lost on that terrible day.
I understand the desire to highlight that the Allies were not exactly above all blame for civilian casualties in the Second World War, but I think that doing this without also acknowledging and highlighting that the Allies were not alone in their strategic and terror bombing campaign (after all, my town was bombed and three people killed by a stick of bombs dropped by a lone Dornier for absolutely no reason at all other than the fact that we were at war with Germany - ).
I know that as a German, Feuer Frei, you feel quite strongly about Dresden, as I feel about the Blitz and the Luftwaffe campaign against the UK, but I will hold my hands up and admit that both sides committed terrible acts, in the First and Second World War, just as has done in all wars before and after it, this thread is about Dresden, I know that and acknowledge that, and as such should be about the people of Dresden and not the bombers, bomber crews, bomber command or Churchill.

[Feuer Frei!]

Originally Posted by Oberon

This thread does seem to have started from the outset as an attack on the Allied forces and their leadership as opposed to a commemoration of the lives lost on that terrible day.

It was never my intention to post this thread as a attack on the Allies or to incite anti-Ally feelings or otherwise.
My intention was always to bring to light the comemoration of Event, if you will, and to otherwise inform people that it marks a time in history which will never be forgotten. Nor will the souls that lost their lives in the city due to the bombings. As i mentioned earlier in this thread, i should have known better to post this, as indeed you are right, i do have strong feelings about this, due to my heritage and also because the thread was bound to be derailed by the non-relative information which always seems to come up if it's anything to do with WW2 or Germany and it's part in WW2.
And i'm not just talking about in this thread but anywhere, in real life, other forums, etc.

[Oberon]

I understand, alas there is a tendency due to the nature of Hitlers regime to think of things in black and white, I know of one person on these forums that thinks that ALL Germans in World War Two were Nazis. I do not think that way but I know that there are many out there who do, and that is sad. Tak is right in that the Second World War was very much a watershed for this world and because of it there are still very strong feelings about it some sixty years later, and but for several changes of fate it could be that half of the forum would be saying how disgusting the actions of the Allies were against the righteous Nazis, that is how close it came in some instances. However as they say, history is written by the victors, and Germany has spent the past sixty years being constantly reminded that it was the loser, and again, that is sad.
At least there is a growing amount of people who realise the costs of war and that no side is truly innocent in war, no matter how just the cause, and that each civilian (and non-civilian for that matter) death is a tragedy. This will not stop war though, because there are always those who think that the benefits of armed conflict outweigh the costs, and in some instances perhaps they are right, after all, stopping the Nazis and stopping the slaughter of the Jews was a just cause, however it does not change the fact that many people die in a just cause...it is just a shame that those who do not die, do not learn from the lessons taught by those who did, that we are all equal on this little ball of dirt and should consider each other as so, and that all thoughts of grandeur and superiority are self-delusions brought on by social and technological status, we all come into this world the same way, and we will all leave it at some point, be we German, English, American, Korean, Chinese, Iraqi or Somalian.
Alas though, that is human nature, and so it shall continue...but, as individuals, you and I, Feuer Frei, can acknowledge the lessons learnt from the Second World War, and in our own ways, by recognising each other as equal, we can make sure that the sacrifices of the people of Dresden, Hamburg, Coventry, and London and all the others who died in the war, was not in vain.

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by August

Now you're the one who says you know where these factories were located and apparently also what they look like from the air, so you must be referencing something in particular. I'm just wondering what it is.

What I'm referencing to is the fact Dowly mentioned, that the Allies knew pretty well what factories there were in Dresden, and more importantly where they were located. Therefore I'll address your reply to his post.

All supported and tied together by the rail and communications centers in the middle of the city. I know that Dresden is a cause célèbre among certain groups these days but just I don't see it as something we should be ashamed about.

- Was the bombing of Dresden necessary?
- Was the bombing of Dresden justified?
If the answer on either one of these questions is "no", it is something the US should be ashamed about.

IMO the answer on both questions is "no".

"They that sow the wind, shall reap the whirlwind"

And two wrongs don't make one right.

Many things the Germans did were wrong. But if you count the bombings of for example Rotterdam and London as wrong, you must also see the bombing of Dresden as such.

Darkfish.
Rotterdam, London, Dresden.
One of those is different in many ways and shouldn't be used in your count

[August]

Originally Posted by DarkFish

- Was the bombing of Dresden necessary?
- Was the bombing of Dresden justified?
If the answer on either one of these questions is "no", it is something the US should be ashamed about.

IMO the answer on both questions is "no".

Only because you're looking at it with hindsight. Wonderful thing that hindsight. It allows you to make all sorts of moral judgments from the comfort of your living room without recognizing that things weren't all that clear at the time they were happening.

The answers to those questions in the beginning of 1945 with an UNdefeated Germany still months away from surrender is an unequivocal yes, just it would be for any other military action that might end the war sooner.

Like I said before. In a fight to the finish you keep punching until your opponent goes down. You don't ease up just because he's on the ropes.

[Feuer Frei!]

Originally Posted by August

Only because you're looking at it with hindsight. Wonderful thing that hindsight. It allows you to make all sorts of moral judgments from the comfort of your living room without recognizing that things weren't all that clear at the time they were happening

I have to jump in here, but what is wrong with the 'other side' wondering, or questioning the events as they happened, or to offer some more thought to the subject?
I think that this sort of thing seems to happen quiet regularly, and i'm not picking on you August, but i have had many a discussion about WW2, as i am sure a lot of you have had too, but it seems to me that us Germans, and non-Germans who some like to call "sympathizers",
when we question history, or to offer our point of view are advised very diplomatically, or indirectly, or more extremely in other cases to cease questioning history, to accept all the accounts and just deal with it, well then, i have an issue with that.
I am certain that that is not what you are intending to do here August, i may have taken your post wrongly, or read it in a different context but it is not hard to do so.
I understand that in your post which i quoted you close in saying that things weren't all that clear at the time that they were happening, which seems to take a lot of the 'sting' if you will out of the quote.
Correct me if i'm wrong but is one not able to offer some free speech to the discussion of Dresden's Events, or to offer one's notions or feelings toward the subject?
Or is it wrong and forbidden to offer one's personal views, (within reason ofc) on the Dresden subject, without getting the feeling that it is wrong because us Germans or those that side with some of our feelings towards some of these discussions are unequivably wrong and how dare they question anything that the Mighty Allies have written.
Sorry August i am not taking you to task personally, maybe i took your post wrongly, it's just that i have seen this all too often before, attempting to have mature and open-sided discussions about things like this and then getting sarcastic or close-minded replies, or being made to feel bad because i or anyone else has questioned anything that may be construed as questioning the history of WW2 and in particular the German side of things.
I hope i haven't put you off, but this is how i feel.

[August]

Originally Posted by Feuer Frei!

I have to jump in here, but what is wrong with the 'other side' wondering, or questioning the events as they happened, or to offer some more thought to the subject?
I think that this sort of thing seems to happen quiet regularly, and i'm not picking on you August, but i have had many a discussion about WW2, as i am sure a lot of you have had too, but it seems to me that us Germans, and non-Germans who some like to call "sympathizers",
when we question history, or to offer our point of view are advised very diplomatically, or indirectly, or more extremely in other cases to cease questioning history, to accept all the accounts and just deal with it, well then, i have an issue with that.
I am certain that that is not what you are intending to do here August, i may have taken your post wrongly, or read it in a different context but it is not hard to do so.
I understand that in your post which i quoted you close in saying that things weren't all that clear at the time that they were happening, which seems to take a lot of the 'sting' if you will out of the quote.
Correct me if i'm wrong but is one not able to offer some free speech to the discussion of Dresden's Events, or to offer one's notions or feelings toward the subject?
Or is it wrong and forbidden to offer one's personal views, (within reason ofc) on the Dresden subject, without getting the feeling that it is wrong because us Germans or those that side with some of our feelings towards some of these discussions are unequivably wrong and how dare they question anything that the Mighty Allies have written.
Sorry August i am not taking you to task personally, maybe i took your post wrongly, it's just that i have seen this all too often before, attempting to have mature and open-sided discussions about things like this and then getting sarcastic or close-minded replies, or being made to feel bad because i or anyone else has questioned anything that may be construed as questioning the history of WW2 and in particular the German side of things.
I hope i haven't put you off, but this is how i feel.

You haven't put me off my friend. My comments were aimed more at those who want to politicize that tragedy and others for contemporary purposes.

[Feuer Frei!]

Originally Posted by August

You haven't put me off my friend. My comments were aimed more at those who want to politicize that tragedy and others for contemporary purposes.

Understand, thank you for clarifying that, it is very hard to understand the 'context' of online conversations

[August]

Originally Posted by Feuer Frei!

Understand, thank you for clarifying that, it is very hard to understand the 'context' of online conversations

It is.

FWIW though I sympathize with the German POV more than you may think. I'm half German myself and could very easily have had relatives in Dresden when that tragedy unfolded.

Between 1936 and 1945 well over 200 urban centres worldwide were immolated from the air, causing hundreds of thousands of deaths and millions of homeless civilians.

Had this thread used the anniversary of the controversial raid on Dresden to commemorate all the victims of the strategic bomber everywhere, there would have been little to add but 'thumbs up'.

It can always be disputed whether the Dresden raid was necessary or not but I would submit that in that place and time, the level of violence engendered by six-years of total war had assumed a momentum of its own and so it was probably inevitable. At this scale of disaster and distance in time concepts like right and wrong tend to become so blurred as to be meaningless as we apply our emotions to what we think we know.

It is worth noting that on the night of the Dresden firestorm, Bomber Command also sent almost 400 bombers against the town of Bohlen, near Leipzig. Bombing through 100% undercast, the attack missed the synthetic oil refinery that was its intended target and the bombing was widely scattered and largely ineffective. Since it is in-conceivable that there were no civilian casualties at Bohlen, so they too share this anniversery and yet are forgotten since Dresden gets all the press coverage. Are not the victims of Bohlen deserving of the same rememberance as the dead of Dresden?

We should well remember all those who died as a result of the strategic bomber whether in the air or on the ground and 13 February is as good a day as any and better than most. However we should also beware of hyperbole, arbitrary value judgements and 20/20 hindsight as discussion points for this very sensitive topic, they add nothing to the dialog.

Cheers

[goldorak]

Originally Posted by August

Only because you're looking at it with hindsight. Wonderful thing that hindsight. It allows you to make all sorts of moral judgments from the comfort of your living room without recognizing that things weren't all that clear at the time they were happening.

The answers to those questions in the beginning of 1945 with an UNdefeated Germany still months away from surrender is an unequivocal yes, just it would be for any other military action that might end the war sooner.

Like I said before. In a fight to the finish you keep punching until your opponent goes down. You don't ease up just because he's on the ropes.

No no no. Hindsight has nothing to do with it. In the pacific theater for instance , General LeMay knew perfectly well what he was doing when he ordered the strategic bombing raids against japanese cities. And when high altitude bombing raids didn't bring enough devastation he ordered low level flights during the night. The tokyo raid make 100 000 dead. Civilian dead. This is not war, this is massacre. He was so aware of this that he publicly stated that should the US lose the war he would have been convicted of war crimes.
The whole strategic bombing doctrine was born and developed in England and the US. Other countries used it with more or less success but the art of SB was taken to its extreme with the british and americans. Germany didn't even have a long range bomber force when it entered the war. All medium and light bombers. So yes Germany has it reponsabilities, but so do the Allies.
And winning the war is no excuse to put under the rug many "questionable" actions. Its as if after 60 years we still have this image of Germany as the empire of evil, and the Allies were the knights in shining armor fighting the dragon for truth and justice. Go beyond the propaganda and you see that the allies were every bit as ruthless and oportunistic as the germans.
And what about the japanese ? Eh they lost the war also, and yet even in 2010 they still don't aknowledge their responsabilities in the war. They negate everything, and lets not even go into the japanese occupation of china.

No no no. Hindsight has nothing to do with it.

Mainly correct, but hindsight also is a factor.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by DarkFish

What I'm referencing to is the fact Dowly mentioned, that the Allies knew pretty well what factories there were in Dresden, and more importantly where they were located. Therefore I'll address your reply to his post.

I'm not going to get into this argument, other than to say this:

August is correct about hindsight, but you are also correct with the "should be ashamed" comment. We should all have the grace to realize that yes, horrible things happen in war, and mistakes are made, but we should also determine not to use that as an excuse.

But you need to remember that part of the climate on a website like this is the occasional poster whose intent is not "we all have our bad side" but rather "no, you're the bad one, worse than I am". Sometimes a reply is made with that in mind, when the person replied to didn't mean that at all.

Sometimes we get defensive when we don't need to. And other times we need to.