Where's my SJ radar?

[WH4K]

Two patrols ago, I had the option to get SJ surface-search radar, so I did.

Thing is, it's not working. The displays in my sub don't work, even though the equipment screen shows that I do in fact have SJ radar.

What gives?

Is SJ unavailable in a Salmon-class boat for some reason?

[Ducimus]

Did you just get refitted from the early war conning tower to a cut down version?

[CapnScurvy]

What is the date of your last mission?

The Salmon class boat does not get SJ Surface Radar until July 1, 1942.

[tomoose]

I'm currently dealing with this now. Got a new boat, plenty of renknown. "Bought" the SJ radar and installed it but it doesn't work. I've finished a couple of patrols and tried to install SJ at dock (again, plenty of renknown) but no joy.

I posted this before and IIRC you can "install" via one of the text files I think. I haven't tested that out.

[WH4K]

My last patrol ended in early January 1943. On my current patrol it's January 23. I should have the radar, shouldn't I?

[WH4K]

Bah, I guess it's a moot point for now.

I got my boat so badly damaged in my recent patrol that when I returned, I was offered "retire or take a new boat."

I took the new boat, only I didn't get a new boat. They gave me a Porpoise-class, which has 2 fewer stern tubes than a Salmon, among other things.

Also no SJ radar offered.

Perhaps it was COMSUBPAC's idea of an object lesson, as in, "This is why we can't have nice things!"

[CapnScurvy]

WH4K, you should have radar if you bought it with enough renown. The Porpoise class sub gets the early SJ radar offered on July 5, 1942 in the stock game.



=========================



EDIT:
I removed the remainder of this post since it was incorrect in it's assertions. Sorry, I have no intention to steer someone wrong.

[WH4K]

Cap'n, only mod I'm using is TMO 2.0, and my paths aren't exactly as you specify. Here's what I do have:

\silent hunters wolves of the pacific\Data\UPCData
\silent hunters wolves of the pacific\Data\UPCDataGE

Each of those contains a \UPCUnitsData subdirectory.

Which one should I "fix?"

FWIW, I now have a Porpoise-class boat. I got my Salmon-class so banged up that it probably had to go back to the States for repair, presumably why I was offered an "upgrade" to a Porpoise.

I have tons of renown points, but wasn't even offered the choice to get SJ radar before I left Midway in my Porpoise-class.

[CapnScurvy]

WH4K, a Porpoise class boat isn't really an upgrade over the Salmon. Actually the game lists it older by a couple of years (that's why you lost a couple of stern tubes).

Anyway, from what you tell us your last patrol was sometime at the end of January, 1943, so it's probably February '43 now. The game is suppose to offer it's first upgrade of SJ radar for a Porpoise class after July 5,1942. The next upgrade (to the SJ-1) is suppose to come June 30, 1943. I've heard the game has a problem in keeping up with this schedule, especially after a refit or boat swap, so I'm not at all sure what to make of that problem. How this "refit" problem may effect the issue I pointed out is not known. So the fix I thought you could try is just a guess.

The fact that you are using TMO 2.0 may throw a monkey wrench into what I said you could try. Ducimus changes a lot of things with his mod. For all I know the stock game dates (that I gave) of upgrades may be different than what's in TMO 2.0. What I do know is the entries found in the "UPCData" folder that I pointed out, are entries that I don't believe exist in the game. I've not seen any reference to them in the files that count. So again, its just a stab in the dark when I say try this.

You found the correct folders:
\silent hunters wolves of the pacific\Data\UPCData
\silent hunters wolves of the pacific\Data\UPCDataGE


Open the "UPCData" folder.

The "UPCDataGE" folder is the German counterpart (thus the addition of the GE tacked onto the name?) of the American side of things. If you opened the German "UPCDataGE/UPCDataUnits/UpgradePacks.upc" you would see quite a difference in file entries.

As I pointed out, delete the entries for both the Salmon and Porpoise class boats (since you've had to make a trade in boats) and see what you get. Again, how does TMO 2.0 affect this change, or how does this other issue of not getting upgrades when a transfer or refit takes place? I don't know. It really gets complicated now.

[WH4K]

Did the edit. Loaded one of my earlier saves with the Salmon-class boat. Still no SJ radar, but at least nothing broke.

I did so well with my Porpoise-class that they gave me a Gato next time I docked at Midway. However, I didn't even get the choice to install SJ radar before leaving. Patrol started 24 July 1943. I thought SJ was available by then?

I started a new campaign with a Gato to check. Yep, it has SJ radar by default. What's the deal?

Update:
I gave it another try, re-loading from the "office" part just before leaving Midway in my new Gato. This time I had the option, so I grabbed the SJ-1 radar. I guess the missing SJ earlier was just a temporary bug.

There seem to be several of those in SH4. Like all the needles pointing straight up for the rest of my patrol, after something I haven't been able to determine "breaks" all the 3D gages.

[CapnScurvy]

I tried the "fix" with a brand new campaign, Pearl, start of the war, I got 'nothin! So much for my first advice

I know when choosing the Balao class sub the radar comes standard equipped. Of course the Baleo isn't offered until after Feb 4 1943, and not at all sub bases. But, this class of boat doesn't seem to have the troubles the other classes have. The Gato is similar to the Balao but, like all the other boats (except the Balao) the Gato doesn't come equipped with radar if you're starting out on a new career before July, 1942.

I did some more tinkering and I do have the subs starting the game with the option of having the radar (both SD air search, and SJ, surface search) available to you before leaving port. This of course isn't authentic, but at least you have the option to have them put "on board" if you want. This is for all subs, all ports.

Whether the changes I made to the game allows you to transfer or refit your sub at a later date without losing the radar you already earned? I don't know. I'm going to do some more testing with the campaign layers. It seems to me if the stock game is such a pain in the backside with the use and upgrade of the radar, I would think losing a bit of authenticity during the first few months of the war would be a fair trade off for having the radar available as expected. After all the game has the SD radar set to come on board at the end of Dec. 1941. The SJ was to be available early July, 1942 for all boats but the Baleo (which isn't set to appear in the game until that Feb, 1943 date). So, we are only moving up the clock a few months anyway. If it's considered an "option" just don't add the unit to the boat until you feel the magic date of July 1942 has been reached.

Anyway, I'm going to do a bit more testing. I'll let you know what I changed or just make a JSGME mod to have the game enable the radar units use from the outset of a career. I think doing this will prevent the problems that come along later when the time of an upgrade is correct, but you don't have access to the upgrade due to some problem the game has in keeping track of the time.

[CapnScurvy]

I thought I'd post what I've found with the stock game. I have found several errors with the sensors files that may contribute to the issue of not getting an SJ (surface search radar) upgrade when you should have it offered.

Specific to the Salmon class sub, a player should have it made available through a renown purchase by July 1, 1942. All subs have it available about this same time, give or take a few days (except for the Balao which has it equipped from its appearance date in the game). What I have found is several specific dates are wrong or are out of sequence with other dates that depend on them being in a correct order. Below is the Data/Submarine/NSS_Salmon.sns file opened with a wrong date underlined. The "NodeName=R01" is the SJ radar (R02 stands for the SD radar). No such date as June 31,1942, the month of June only has 30 days in it!!



The "Sensor 8" parameter defines the SJ radar having "null" no radar, from the date Jan 1, 1938 to June 31, 1942. The first date its offered is found in the following "Sensor 9" section with the start date of July 1, 1942. Notice the break in "sequence" when you throw in a bogus date. It's important to have them follow each other as in the difference between the "Sensor 9" EndDate of May 15, 1943 to the "Sensor 10" StartDate of May 16, 1943. No breaks in time, no bogus date added.

I know enough about game modding that tells me having this date wrong throws a huge curve ball to the games internal clock that defines what day is it. This particular same error is found in the Sargo class sub as well.

Other errors include the Porpoise class sub with the same end and start dates (June 30 1943) for the transition between the SJ radar and the SJ-1 radar upgrade. The S class boats both having the SJ radar "null" parameter end on July 5, 1942 but the upgrade isn't made available until Sept 5, 1942. The Balao seems ok with its SJ radar dates but, the SD (air search radar) makes an error with the "EndDate" of the standard SD radar of June 1, 1943, by having the "StartDate" of the "Improved SD" radar going back to May 31, 1943, again not being in proper sequence.

I also have been wondering about the "offer" to upgrade to a particular item when your in-port, paying for it with renown, moving the item over to the "On Boat" column yet still having it appear in the "update" item column ready to be purchased again. I've noticed as long as you have the renown you can keep right on purchasing the item until you run out of renown! The SJ radar upgrades seem to do this, the SD improvements don't. I'm finding the UPCData/UPCUnitsData/"UpgradePacks.upc" file has a lot to do with this behavior. The entries in this file need to be changed and made into the correct "order" as well, to have the in-port upgrade menu work as it should.

I have made a workaround but I'd rather not offer it. I have made all this above moot by simply having radar equipped for all sub classes at the start of the game but that just isn't realistic. I would rather try to fix the issue of specific dates than give you a whitewash of having radar for all subs at all dates.

[Moonlight]

Are you going to fix the files and release it as a downloadable mod CapnScurvy?.

[Hylander_1314]

CapnScurvy, I can confirm that with TMO. I am going to alter the dates to 06-30 in the upc, and sns files to see if that makes any difference. I had seen the error before when Ducimus initially worked out why the conning tower upgrades weren't happenning at all, or very rarely. But I didn't think anything about it.

As long as guys save their original files before modifying anything, a little instruction to correct the dates won't hurt. And as long as they make and save copies of the originals before changing anything, they should be fine. That way if the date change breaks anything, it is an easy fix of copy / paste, delete the new and replace it with the original.

Just checked the UpgradesPack.upc file and this is the dates listed for SJ Radar:

UnitUpgradePackIntervalOptionCurrent= NULL, NULL, 0
UnitUpgradePackIntervalOptions1=1942-06-01, 1942-10-01,
UnitUpgradePackIntervalOptions2=1942-10-02, 1943-04-01,
UnitUpgradePackIntervalOptions3=1943-04-02, 1944-05-01

Now, should the sns file reflect the 1942-06-01? Or would there be a possible issue having 06-01 for one, and 06-30 for the other? As it would give an overlap that doesn't seem to be needed, so should all dates referring to SJ Rada reflect the same date?

Just checked the sns files in TMO 2.0 / 2.1, and all the SJ Radar dates are 1942 07 01 or later than that. I think all the way into early Sept for the S Class boats.

[CapnScurvy]

Originally Posted by Hylander_1314

Just checked the UpgradesPack.upc file and this is the dates listed for SJ Radar:

UnitUpgradePackIntervalOptionCurrent= NULL, NULL, 0
UnitUpgradePackIntervalOptions1=1942-06-01, 1942-10-01,
UnitUpgradePackIntervalOptions2=1942-10-02, 1943-04-01,
UnitUpgradePackIntervalOptions3=1943-04-02, 1944-05-01

Now, should the sns file reflect the 1942-06-01? Or would there be a possible issue having 06-01 for one, and 06-30 for the other? As it would give an overlap that doesn't seem to be needed, so should all dates referring to SJ Rada reflect the same date?

Just checked the sns files in TMO 2.0 / 2.1, and all the SJ Radar dates are 1942 07 01 or later than that. I think all the way into early Sept for the S Class boats.

You have a good question, so I'm going to give you what I know about these files and try to answer the best I can.

What I'm referring to is the "stock" game files.

To start, there are three files that need to be looked at in order to check and/or correct this date issue.

1st. Submarine/NSS_SubName/NSS_Subname.sns file lists the equipment and their dates the specific subs have their equipment brought into service (if at all). This file is the key file that spells out what gets loaded onto the sub, and when. The "null" parameter means it is not available. A "LinkName=NULL" that lists the "StartDate as 19380101" and an "EndDate of 19451231" says you don't have this particular piece of equipment for the entire duration of the game.

2nd. Submarine/NSS_SubName/NSS_Subname.upc file lists the various parts (including the crew) that make up the entire sub. What's important in this file is found way down towards the bottom in the "UpgradePackSlot" section. This section lists the various upgrades the sub has available and what is "linked" to that upgrade. It's my opinion the dates found here should be exact to the .sns file above.

3rd. UPCData/UPCUnitsData/UpgradePacks.upc file lists the specific upgrades, what their "elements" are that make up the upgrade, and again their dates that make them available for your choosing, and at what cost of renown for the upgrade. This file I believe, shows along the left hand side of the upgrade menu screen at the dates listed to "offer" them to you (with the specific renown listed price). The different dates listed are mainly for the purpose of lowering the price of the upgrade the longer you don't select it.

Below, I have the three stock files opened for a Gato sub and marked are the sections that refer to the SJ radar and its upgrades.




The Gato gets three different types of SJ radar offered (SJ, SJ-1, and ST). I've colored each dated entry for the three specific types of radar for the three specific files. The Purple highlights are the problem dates for the Gato sub. Notice the same date of Dec. 24, 1943 for the lower renown purchase price (from 500 renown to 100 renown) as the end date of the 500 renown price. When you look at any other entries in this file, the end date for one price does not carry over to become the start date of another. Also, the Blue highlighted date for the ST radar is not correct (although this may be a moot point for the Gato class, I'm not entirely sure the Gato gets offered the ST radar in the later part of the war. That could explain why the small Orange highlighted "comment out" simi-colon is in the NSS_Gato.upc file). Need it or not, the image below shows the corrected dates for the Gato.





This image shows how I have the Gato changed from the stock files. In my opinion, the first two files should be exact in the dates listed (whatever you may choose). The 3rd file, since it has the main task of offering the upgrade on the games "Equipment Upgrade" screen, doesn't have to be exact but should have its date just prior to when the other files list the upgrade. This way the Upgrade is made available just prior to when it actually is ready for purchase. As I stated in an earlier post, I believe one of the faults in the game is offering an upgrade long before it actually comes available for use. As you can see by what I've changed, the dates of the "offer" are just one day ahead of its availability.

As you can guess, this three file relationship should be checked and confirmed for all subs. At least the American subs. I'm guessing the German subs follow the SHIII file order that have been around now for quite some time so, I've not confirmed or checked how well they do. I'm guessing they are ok.

What I found is the .sns file for the Balao, Porpoise, S18, S42, Salmon, Sargo need to be corrected in the dates listed. Either the dates are not in sequence or are off some other way (like listing the 31st of June?!). The Balao issue is specific to the SD (R02) radar section only, the Sclass boats have problems in both SD and SJ sections, the others with just the SJ (R01)radar. Then you make the exact dates in the NSS_Subname.upc files, and then move back one day in the UpgradePacks.upc file.

Originally Posted by Moonlight

Are you going to fix the files and release it as a downloadable mod CapnScurvy?.

I have what I've talked about already added to a mod I'm getting ready to release. I'm testing the parts now and have found improvement in what needs to be done. The mod is called "Optical Targeting Correction" found HERE. I must point out though, just having the radar upgrades work when and as they should isn't going to make the radar work any better than it does. To be honest, the stock radar is terrible in finding targets that's in viewing sight of the sub!! I've done quite a bit of work in getting the radar to work as it should. The fact that the dates are screwed isn't surprising considering how awful the American stock surface radar works. Anyway, to make a complete package the dates need to corrected and the radar reworked to a level that makes it usable. This is what "Optical Targeting Correction" will do.