France's National Front picks Marine Le Pen as new head - Page 2

the_tyrant · 01-17-11, 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penguin

Where in the article or this threrad was the term "Nazi" mentioned?

didn't know who she was, so i went on the wikipedia page for her party

Quote:

Winock also defines the FN as the conjunction of all far-right French traditions: the counter-revolutionaries, the pétainistes (collaborationists under Vichy France), fascists and members of the OAS terrorist group.

tater · 01-17-11, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penguin

Que? Don't get what you mean...
I could not read anything on their website since it was protected by the french language...

If you refer to their politics: I would hardly call it protectrionist. Protectionism refers solely to economic policies. The FN has far more policies than just economic ones - if they represent any economic model at all, besides "buy french only"

I read the wiki entry on the party (since I knew nothing about them other than they routinely get called "far right." I don't see them as "right" at all. Then again my benchmark for far-right would be a Libertarian (minimal government involvement in personal OR economic matters).

Nationalism is not a "right" or a "left" thing. The CCCP was every bit as nationalistic as any country or ideology described as "far right." Ditto the PRC, or any other "far left" system. So if a definition of "far right" includes nationalism, it's a bad definition. Communist states used to also source products internally by force (you had no choice in the CCCP but to "buy Soviet!"). So that's not "right," either. If they are going to describe them as "far right" I'd like to see the criteria for assigning "right" to them.

Penguin · 01-17-11, 11:56 AM

1: european political spectrum by Hans Slomp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politic...e_note-slomp-0

2: Nolan chart: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nolan_chart

Neither in model 1, nor in the Nolan chart (designed by a libertarian), are libertarians described as right-wing.
I think the FN wikipedia article refers to the classical 1 axis spectrum, which includes not really an economic definition.

I would describe the CCCP as a state capitalistic monopoly, as the state was the only entity able to accumulate resources and act in a economical way (economical not meaning using few resources in this context, just be an economical player). The PRC has a weird mixture of state capitalism and private enterpreneurship. It is the best example that a capitalistic economy does not necessarily need political freedom.

tater · 01-17-11, 12:35 PM

What are the units on the first graph that magically puts fascism far right?

http://www.politicalcompass.org/ is a far more rational graph. Economic freedom on one axis, personal on another. Your graph seems meaningless.

Fascism has lowered economic and personal freedom. It has more economic freedom than the communist countries had, but LESS than any modern country (it was in fact a command economy—it looked like a market at first glance, but only "allowed" companies did business, so it was in no way a free market).

So fascist countries rightly belong left of modern countries in terms of economic freedoms, and are also more authoritarian (limits on personal freedom).

In the Nolamn chart, Libertarians are still on the far right of the graph. That graph is also broken because there is zero reason why the lower right should be called "right wing" (used in discussion of "normal" parties) since the normal political right (say in the US) is not the least authoritarian. Decentralized government is mutually exclusive with authoritarianism. That is the primary danger of socialism. It is not dangerous in and of itself, but central control over people's lives means you are a single despot away from ruining everyone's life. When power is decentralized, one person is very limited in what they can do.

Penguin · 01-17-11, 01:12 PM

well, the first graph's x-axis, would represent the traditional (1 axis) L-R spectrum.

The political compass is about the same as the Nolan chart, just with an axis tilt of 45°. Nolan would put fascism and communism in the lower left corner, with fascism a little more to the right maybe. Both axis' would represent the level of government interference in this model, same as in the compass' model. The world's smallest political quiz also uses this model:
http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz

I scored 100/40, this pretty much describes me as a leftie

I gotta get off work now - already 1.5 hours overtime - so my economical freedom(money) interfers with my personal one (freetime)

tater · 01-17-11, 01:16 PM

The "traditional" L-R spectrum is meaningless and biased (putting nazis on the right is nothing but bias, as they are only "right" compared to Stalin).

Schroeder · 01-17-11, 01:23 PM

Left and right over here are not only defined by the economical perspective. There is far more to it. The standpoint towards immigration, traditions, values and so on do play a big role in it as well and that makes Nazism far right.

Hottentot · 01-17-11, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schroeder

Left and right over here are not only defined by the economical perspective. There is far more to it. The standpoint towards immigration, traditions, values and so on do play a big role in it as well and that makes Nazism far right.

Speaking of which, what do the modern nazis stand for anyway? The picture I have is that they mostly oppose immigration, but have they ever given any other concrete examples in the middle of their rants? Surely they don't answer this question by just handing out a copy of Mein Kampf and telling to read it? Or do they even read it themself anymore?

Honestly, I don't know. They are supposed to be into politics, but usually I can tell what kind of policies different parties stand for quite easily. But in this case I can't.

Schroeder · 01-17-11, 03:03 PM

Good question.
To be honest I don't exactly know. They hate foreigners, that one is certain (or at least non white foreigners). I also think that the rest of their political view is very conservative regarding family, educating the youth and the military (like in the "good" old days). In economics I think they want something like our social market economy but with stricter rules against exploitation.
I think that are the basics, but I'm really no expert in modern German far right parties so use this info at your own risk.

Skybird · 01-17-11, 03:58 PM

Not so much do Nazis just hate foreigners, but they consider them to be genetically inferior. Nazism includes an idea of genetic supremacy of own "race" (often while maintaining a very disarranged understanding of what their "own race" in fact is), it always includes a racist component, and also always present is a strong antisemitic component.Another characteristic is a strong hate of communism and democracy, b oth are being seen as a sign of weakness and degeneration, I can't tell which of the two they hate more. That is what makes Nazism in Germany, according to the German constitution, truly anti-constitutional, since it aims at overthrowing the constitutional order - even by force, if that is a promising chance. It also is in vilation of human dignity, which also is agaiunmst the constituion (article 1 of the Basic Law: The dignity of man is untouchable.)

We see since years that for the latter reason, Nazis opportunistically cooperate with Islamic groups, since both have three things in common: 1. their defence of the holocaust and their antismetic hate against Jews, 2. the intent to topple the democratic state, 3. the totalitarian basic structure of their ideologies, which by content are different, but by aim are identical: gaining total control over the social community as well as over the individual. Both want total uniformity, and collectivism.

Penguin · 01-18-11, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schroeder

Left and right over here are not only defined by the economical perspective. There is far more to it. The standpoint towards immigration, traditions, values and so on do play a big role in it as well and that makes Nazism far right.

The 1axis left-right scheme is more defined by social values.
To add some more confusion, we also exchange the words 'liberal' and 'libertarian' - not 100% comparible though.
Our european liberals (US: libertarians) define themselves just as centrist - neither right nor left.

01-17-11, 11:56 AM	#18
Penguin Ocean Warrior Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Rheinische Republik Posts: 3,322 Downloads: 92 Uploads: 0	1: european political spectrum by Hans Slomp http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politic...e_note-slomp-0 2: Nolan chart: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nolan_chart Neither in model 1, nor in the Nolan chart (designed by a libertarian), are libertarians described as right-wing. I think the FN wikipedia article refers to the classical 1 axis spectrum, which includes not really an economic definition. I would describe the CCCP as a state capitalistic monopoly, as the state was the only entity able to accumulate resources and act in a economical way (economical not meaning using few resources in this context, just be an economical player). The PRC has a weird mixture of state capitalism and private enterpreneurship. It is the best example that a capitalistic economy does not necessarily need political freedom. Last edited by Penguin; 01-17-11 at 12:01 PM. Reason: made Nolan chart better readable

01-17-11, 01:23 PM	#22
Schroeder Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Banana Republic of Germany Posts: 6,170 Downloads: 62 Uploads: 0	Left and right over here are not only defined by the economical perspective. There is far more to it. The standpoint towards immigration, traditions, values and so on do play a big role in it as well and that makes Nazism far right. __________________ Putting Germ back into Germany.

01-17-11, 03:03 PM	#24
Schroeder Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Banana Republic of Germany Posts: 6,170 Downloads: 62 Uploads: 0	Good question. To be honest I don't exactly know. They hate foreigners, that one is certain (or at least non white foreigners). I also think that the rest of their political view is very conservative regarding family, educating the youth and the military (like in the "good" old days). In economics I think they want something like our social market economy but with stricter rules against exploitation. I think that are the basics, but I'm really no expert in modern German far right parties so use this info at your own risk. __________________ Putting Germ back into Germany.

01-17-11, 03:58 PM	#25
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,660 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Not so much do Nazis just hate foreigners, but they consider them to be genetically inferior. Nazism includes an idea of genetic supremacy of own "race" (often while maintaining a very disarranged understanding of what their "own race" in fact is), it always includes a racist component, and also always present is a strong antisemitic component.Another characteristic is a strong hate of communism and democracy, b oth are being seen as a sign of weakness and degeneration, I can't tell which of the two they hate more. That is what makes Nazism in Germany, according to the German constitution, truly anti-constitutional, since it aims at overthrowing the constitutional order - even by force, if that is a promising chance. It also is in vilation of human dignity, which also is agaiunmst the constituion (article 1 of the Basic Law: The dignity of man is untouchable.) We see since years that for the latter reason, Nazis opportunistically cooperate with Islamic groups, since both have three things in common: 1. their defence of the holocaust and their antismetic hate against Jews, 2. the intent to topple the democratic state, 3. the totalitarian basic structure of their ideologies, which by content are different, but by aim are identical: gaining total control over the social community as well as over the individual. Both want total uniformity, and collectivism. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

01-17-11, 12:35 PM	#19
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	What are the units on the first graph that magically puts fascism far right? http://www.politicalcompass.org/ is a far more rational graph. Economic freedom on one axis, personal on another. Your graph seems meaningless. Fascism has lowered economic and personal freedom. It has more economic freedom than the communist countries had, but LESS than any modern country (it was in fact a command economy—it looked like a market at first glance, but only "allowed" companies did business, so it was in no way a free market). So fascist countries rightly belong left of modern countries in terms of economic freedoms, and are also more authoritarian (limits on personal freedom). In the Nolamn chart, Libertarians are still on the far right of the graph. That graph is also broken because there is zero reason why the lower right should be called "right wing" (used in discussion of "normal" parties) since the normal political right (say in the US) is not the least authoritarian. Decentralized government is mutually exclusive with authoritarianism. That is the primary danger of socialism. It is not dangerous in and of itself, but central control over people's lives means you are a single despot away from ruining everyone's life. When power is decentralized, one person is very limited in what they can do.

01-17-11, 01:12 PM	#20
Penguin Ocean Warrior Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Rheinische Republik Posts: 3,322 Downloads: 92 Uploads: 0	well, the first graph's x-axis, would represent the traditional (1 axis) L-R spectrum. The political compass is about the same as the Nolan chart, just with an axis tilt of 45°. Nolan would put fascism and communism in the lower left corner, with fascism a little more to the right maybe. Both axis' would represent the level of government interference in this model, same as in the compass' model. The world's smallest political quiz also uses this model: http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz I scored 100/40, this pretty much describes me as a leftie I gotta get off work now - already 1.5 hours overtime - so my economical freedom(money) interfers with my personal one (freetime)

01-17-11, 01:16 PM	#21
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	The "traditional" L-R spectrum is meaningless and biased (putting nazis on the right is nothing but bias, as they are only "right" compared to Stalin).