Just a simple friendly discussion

[Sandman_28054]

My uncle was in WWII, and after the invasion of Normandy, he related to me some tales. He did not talk about his experiences in WWII, Korea, or Vietnam, but every once in a while he would mention a thing or two.

Question, how many U-Boat Captians do you believe were the "hard-core" Nazi type, and how many were doing the same as their allies, serving their country?

I've always wondered this.

[frau kaleun]

Impossible to say, really - of the vast majority, there is probably no documented record of their personal beliefs and anyone who could bear witness to what those beliefs might have been is long since gone.

Of those who were/are well known, and whose beliefs can be pinned down or guessed at based on documentation or eyewitness reports of what they said and did... at least a couple seem to have been considered "pro-Nazi" in terms of ideology.

How many were "anti-Nazi" to the same degree would probably be more difficult to say based on words and deeds from that time period, since anyone who was would have been less likely to express his opinion about it than someone who wasn't.

I would guess that for the majority, as with the majority of service people everywhere, they were in the service for reasons that had little to do with the government and leaders they ended up serving under, whether they were actively for it or against it. As such they would have been doing their duty as they understood it for whatever government was in power.

Keep in mind that u-boat commanders were commissioned officers, which involved a 25 year commitment to naval service. They didn't get to opt out of the deal based on their personal opinions of who was running the gubmint or what decisions those leaders made. If you were in uniform and the powers that be got you into a war, well, then it was as much a matter of your own survival and the survival of the people you served with and for whom (as an officer) you would be personally responsible once in combat.

[Sandman_28054]

Originally Posted by frau kaleun

Impossible to say, really - of the vast majority, there is probably no documented record of their personal beliefs and anyone who could bear witness to what those beliefs might have been is long since gone.

Of those who were/are well known, and whose beliefs can be pinned down or guessed at based on documentation or eyewitness reports of what they said and did... at least a couple seem to have been considered "pro-Nazi" in terms of ideology.

How many were "anti-Nazi" to the same degree would probably be more difficult to say based on words and deeds from that time period, since anyone who was would have been less likely to express his opinion about it than someone who wasn't.

I would guess that for the majority, as with the majority of service people everywhere, they were in the service for reasons that had little to do with the government and leaders they ended up serving under, whether they were actively for it or against it. As such they would have been doing their duty as they understood it for whatever government was in power.

Keep in mind that u-boat commanders were commissioned officers, which involved a 25 year commitment to naval service. They didn't get to opt out of the deal based on their personal opinions of who was running the gubmint or what decisions those leaders made. If you were in uniform and the powers that be got you into a war, well, then it was as much a matter of your own survival and the survival of the people you served with and for whom (as an officer) you would be peronally responsible once in combat.

I realize most of this, but just a few months before my uncle died, he was talking about his WWII experiences and with the exception of "SS" troops, most he enountered were the same as him, just men serving their country.

I was just wondering if it was the same among the Kriegsmarine.

[frau kaleun]

Originally Posted by Sandman_28054

I realize most of this, but just a few months before my uncle died, he was talking about his WWII experiences and with the exception of "SS" troops, most he enountered were the same as him, just men serving their country.

I was just wondering if it was the same among the Kriegsmarine.

To that I would say, almost without hesitation, yes.

In fact the conventional wisdom on the subject (and I personally have not seen anything that contradicts it) is that the Kriegsmarine was the least politicized (and so the least "Nazified") arm of the German armed forces. This changed somewhat as the war went on and paranoia about anti-Nazi conspiracies within the armed forces became more rampant (and indeed more justified after the Valkyrie plot).

But in general, I think your uncle's opinion probably holds true for most service people in most conflicts.

[Sailor Steve]

Frau Kaleun alread said it best. How many were/weren't? Who knows?

Just men serving their country? Again I agree with her. By-and-large the vast majority of soldiers and sailors are young men who join up because they have been convinced that their country/families/way of life are in danger. The enemy is evil and must be stopped.

And when actual combat comes they fight for their own lives, and those of their comrades. For a soldier in the front lines there is nothing else.

[frau kaleun]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

And when actual combat comes they fight for their own lives, and those of their comrades. For a soldier in the front lines there is nothing else.

Yes. There are times when one's loyalties, shall we say, become very focused.

[Herr-Berbunch]

Frau got it spot on, and Steve not far behind

[Kapt Z]

Even if you opposed the policies/ideology of Hitler and the Nazis it would have been extremely detrimental to your health to voice those objections in public in the Third Reich.

I know of one u-boat commander who was actually executed because he ranted his anti-Nazi ideas one too many times to his Nazi wardroom.

[Herr-Berbunch]

Originally Posted by Kapt Z

Even if you opposed the policies/ideology of Hitler and the Nazis it would have been extremely detrimental to your health to voice those objections in public in the Third Reich.

I know of one u-boat commander who was actually executed because he ranted his anti-Nazi ideas one too many times to his Nazi wardroom.

I don't think he ranted too hard, either, he just didn't get on with the few 'party men' that were sent aboard. He was set-up but the worse bit is that Doenitz and co did nothing to stop his execution!

[frau kaleun]

Originally Posted by Kapt Z

I know of one u-boat commander who was actually executed because he ranted his anti-Nazi ideas one too many times to his Nazi wardroom.

http://www.uboat.net/men/kusch.htm

I have a book about Kusch on my Wish List... from what I've read here and there about the case, the motivation of his IWO for instigating the court-martial that led to his execution seems a bit unclear. Was it purely politically motivated? (Kusch appears to have been a fairly outspoken critic of Nazi policy and leaders, Abel an ardent supporter of them.) Or was the primary motivation really IWO Abel's lingering resentment over Kusch's negative "reviews" of his performance on board their boat? (One called him unfit for command; a second one reversed that opinion, but only grudgingly.)

I've also read various opinions regarding the "guilty" verdict, and the death sentence; some say that it was purely a punishment for openly criticizing National Socialism and its leaders, others that it was not Kusch's political opinions per se but his having voiced them in the presence of his men in a way that (or so the court ruled) endangered their morale and therefore the integrity and performance of the crew as a whole.

One wonders if any of it would have happened, or turned out the way it did, earlier in the war when things were going much better for the u-boat service in particular and Germany in general, and the "maverick" behavior within the service was not only more likely to be tolerated but even encouraged to some degree... as long as the mavericks in question were sinking plenty of ships and returning to base as conquering heroes.

[Kapt Z]

Good points.

I have heard many stories of German citizens(civis and military) who just disappeared after making vague comments against the Nazis or Hitler and just had the misfortune to be reported by someone.

It certainly didn't take much.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Kapt Z

Good points.

I have heard many stories of German citizens(civis and military) who just disappeared after making vague comments against the Nazis or Hitler and just had the misfortune to be reported by someone.

It certainly didn't take much.

It got much worse as the inevitable outcome of the war dawned on those most loyal to Hitler and his sycophants.