Unsolved History: Conspiracies to Kill Hitler

[STEED]

Operation Citadel was a bloody disaster in wasting all that German Armour for nothing, it should have never happen. Mind you Case Blue should have never happen, over extending the lines was asking for trouble.

[frau kaleun]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

The major flaw there was the fact that not only did they hope the UK and US would withdraw from their alliance with the USSR but also join with the Germans in fighting the USSR.

Yeah, exactly... not sure what they were thinking. Maybe something along the lines of "we broke our pact with the Soviets, and so will everybody else."

[frau kaleun]

Originally Posted by STEED

Operation Citadel was a bloody disaster in wasting all that German Armour for nothing, it should have never happen. Mind you Case Blue should have never happen, over extending the lines was asking for trouble.

Generally speaking, there are just so many reasons why a prolonged invasion of Russia (or whatever it's calling itself ATM) is never a great idea.

[JokerOfFate]

The only reason that the Germans lost the war was the Japanese.
Attacking the US bad idea . But Italy were the worsed.

[Raptor1]

Originally Posted by JokerOfFate

The only reason that the Germans lost the war was the Japanese.
Attacking the US bad idea . But Italy were the worsed.

Huh?

Explain further, please.

[JokerOfFate]

What about Italy or Japan??

[Raptor1]

Let's see.

Originally Posted by JokerOfFate

The only reason that the Germans lost the war was the Japanese.

What was it about the Japanese that was 'the only reason the Germans lost the war'? I can think of a whole bunch of different reasons that have nothing to do with the Japanese.

Originally Posted by JokerOfFate

But Italy were the worsed.

The Italians did what, where, when?

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Raptor1

Huh?

Explain further, please.

I think he means that when Japan attacked the US it brought the industrial and manpower might of the USA in on the Allied/Comintern side, while at the same time the Japanese did nothing to draw off the Soviets in the eastern front (Like attack in to Mongolia).

When people think of the Japanese they always jump to the Carriers, the Yamato and the Zero Fighters but they don't think of their Army, it was huge! They started off with 1,700,000 million troops in 51 divisions plus a Marine Corps (Incl. Paras) in the IJN. By the end of the War they had 5.5 million men in the Army.

[frau kaleun]

Originally Posted by Raptor1

What was it about the Japanese that was 'the only reason the Germans lost the war'? I can think of a whole bunch of different reasons that have nothing to do with the Japanese.

I expect he means that the attack on Pearl Harbor is what brought the US fully and officially into the conflict, with our declaration of war against Japan resulting in Germany's declaration of war against the United States.

Whether we would've declared war on any or all Axis powers, or had them declare war on us, later rather than sooner without the provocation of Japan's attack is of course debatable. As is the theory that our entry at that particular time was the most important factor in Germany's eventual defeat.

[JokerOfFate]

The Japanese attacked the US of course, sealing Germany's fate with a bit of strategy they may have beaten the Russian alone, but two superpowers knocking on their door... although it was a good start to fight, but due to bad command and strategy not to mention the amount of recourses wasted through "Banzai" and "Kamikaze" attacks and on top of all that their troops don't have the right weapons for the job

The Italians... well they didn't have a clue what they were doing, I think Africa was where they show just bad they play ball, very bad leadership with bad quality equipment and to add to that I dough the troops had any combat Exp.. But to be fair the Brits had a strategy.

Maybe if Germany had better allies they might of won the war

I think that should do.

[JokerOfFate]

Question:

If the Brits and the France were allied to Poland and Declared war on Germany when they attacked, Did they Declare war on Russia when they attacked Poland as well or am I missing something?

[Raptor1]

Ah, that. Very well, but it's hardly the only reason Germany lost the war. I can't see them winning had they done mostly the same things they did without the US intervening. By the time the US entered the war, Operation Typhoon had already failed and the Soviets had launched their Winter counteroffensive, which means the Germans already got the closest they had to actually winning the war in the east (Yes, I know, debatable).

The Italian performance was indeed pretty bad, but they weren't really a net loss for the Germans. They wouldn't have been better off without them...I think...

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

I think he means that when Japan attacked the US it brought the industrial and manpower might of the USA in on the Allied/Comintern side, while at the same time the Japanese did nothing to draw off the Soviets in the eastern front (Like attack in to Mongolia).

When people think of the Japanese they always jump to the Carriers, the Yamato and the Zero Fighters but they don't think of their Army, it was huge! They started off with 1,700,000 million troops in 51 divisions plus a Marine Corps (Incl. Paras) in the IJN. By the end of the War they had 5.5 million men in the Army.

How useful would this army have been against the Soviets in 1941 or 1942? Not only was it bogged down or otherwise in action in China, Burma and the Pacific, it was also very poorly equipped and trained for an open land war.

They've certainly proven pretty bad at it in 1939 and 1945.

Originally Posted by JokerOfFate

Question:

If the Brits and the France were allied to Poland and Declared war on Germany when they attacked, Did they Declare war on Russia when they attacked Poland as well or am I missing something?

No, they didn't.

[JokerOfFate]

You mean Russia got let of the hook. I don't the British for not doing it tho

[Gerald]

With hindsight, I think that Germany had not entered the eastern front, as Red Army had done it, sooner or later

[Diopos]

Originally Posted by Vendor

With hindsight, I think that Germany had not entered the eastern front, as Red Army had done it, sooner or later

Not so sure If "expansion" was in Stalin's plans. The Soviet Army was still suffering from the recent "purges". Stalin was in a phase of "stabilizing" the Soviet Union, deepening his control over party and state, "industralization", etc. Not so sure he was planning to teach the rest of the world about the benefits communism the "hard" way. He was still "convincing" the people back home .


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