How's the hold out crowd holding up?

[John Channing]

Were you purposely trying to offend people with that, or was it an attempt at humor?

JCC

[Nisgeis]

Originally Posted by peteuplink

No offence, but I think you're way off the mark. The "hold out crew" are the ones waiting for the DRM to be removed. The clue's in the name.
They want to buy the game but they're "holding out" until the DRM is no longer there. If you look up the phrase "holding out" you'll find that it means "waiting for something". IE, waiting for the DRM to be removed.

Well, I took your advice and looked up on that there internet what 'holding out' meant and much to my surprise, it actually meant exactly what I thought it did. It doesn't mean 'waiting for' it means to continue to resist something.

If someone is not buying the game because the DRM would not allow them to play it, so they couldn't run it, then that's a perfectly sensible thing to do. If someone is able to run the game, but has not bought it, then that person has made that choice to not buy a game they could play and they can be said to be holding out. Usually the update on the 'holdout' is usually along the lines of:

I'm holding out quite nicely thankyou. SH5 is the buggiest game ever and the war only goes upto 1943. Seriously who set it so you can't dive your boat if you are on the bridge... etcetera.

So, you can see that simple update just turns into a bash of SH5.

If people want to post 'I'm still holding out because I have iron will and have taken an oath to never buy a product with DRM' then fine. Very few posts are along those lines though.

When it was suggested people actually tell Ubisoft that they didn't like the DRM, there was active resistance against that.

Originally Posted by peteuplink

The ones that just simply don't want to buy the game, are exactly that. People who aren't in the slightest bit interested if it has DRM on it or not because they have no intentions at all of buying the game and really just couldn't give a toss. Lets face it the reviews have been less than stunning and this surely would put a lot of prospective buyers off.

If they don't care, they won't be posting here.

Originally Posted by peteuplink

The way you put it, it's like saying "People who don't watch football are holding out", but that's completely ignoring the fact that maybe some of these people just wouldn't go to see a football match, even if the best players in the world were playing 5 a side at the end of their street for free. It's not holding out, it's a lack of interest.

No, that's really not the way I put it. To correct your football analogy with my reasoning it would be:

Football Fan A does not buy a ticket, because he is prevented from travelling to the game or entering the ground by the football club. Fan A does not buy a ticket, because he would be unable to enjoy the game.

Football Fan B does not buy a ticket, because some other people are prevented from travelling to the game or entering the football ground. Although Fan B could enjoy the game himself, he instead spends time posting on a bicycle repair forum about how they are finding holding out easy because the manager of the club doesn't know what he's doing and the players are all a bunch of overpaid ponces who would only run after a football if it had a Hello! magazine contract attached to it. The club's going downhill and it won't be long until the club is relegated and that means bye bye fat TV contract and hello bankrupcy and in the mean time he's going back to watching cricket, where they play properly.

Originally Posted by Harmsway!

That's correct. I want to buy the game but I'm waiting. Holding out describes me exactly.

More so until you get a better gaming machine though right?

[M4XDmG]

I understand why people won't by this game with DRM. I (and many others I read) wasn't able to sign in and play last evening when I was trying to play SH5 after a hard day at work. And in that five minutes when I couldn't start the game, I realized how terrible thing it is to prevent gamebuyers to play their game they've payed for already! I was pissed of. But when I got my game running after that five minutes, I also realized how much those people, who won't play the game because of DRM, are missing...

This game with proper mods is something to wait for after that hard day at work!

[robbo180265]

Originally Posted by DeadlyWolf

Yet more name calling

[Nisgeis]

Was that not his sig then?

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by DeadlyWolf

Do you have something productive to add, or is this just another tantrum? I do grow so weary of the later. This thread has near run it's course so, I'll add my own picture now.



Danger, Will Robinson.

The Management

[Hanomag]

Im still "holding out"....

Actually in October.. "Fallout New Vegas" is coming out...

No DRM necessary... just my Xbox...

As much as I love my PC and Silent Hunter.. well a previous version anyways.. Its just easier to pop in a disc and just blast away...

[THE_MASK]

Originally Posted by Hanomag

Im still "holding out"....

Actually in October.. "Fallout New Vegas" is coming out...

No DRM necessary... just my Xbox...

As much as I love my PC and Silent Hunter.. well a previous version anyways.. Its just easier to pop in a disc and just blast away...

Both my kids have xbox and they wont use it unless they are on live

[Sailor Steve]

@ DeadlyWolf:

I can hardly be considered a 'fanboy', since I haven't bought the game myself.

The point you apparently missed was that we had just had a member speak for all of us when he said

Due to the way the thread is titled, it seems as if it's an invitation to keep bashing the game, e.g. 'I've still not bought the game because it still sucks.'. Well, wow, who'd have thought that with no new patch, that your opinion of a game you've never played, still hasn't changed. I'm amazed people think they need to tell us this.

And then one of our most respected members quoted that post, and agreed with it. And just a couple of posts later you came along and said

And what I've got? Idiotic drm, huge gameplay flaws (the "RPG" system? Please don't make me laugh), bugs, and especially a shameful communuty support (the "patch", if you dare call it that, and the communication)

I probably won't buy SH5 even without DRM (I'd honestly prefer to donate to subsim or the modding comm), and without any doubt I'm done with UBISOFT.

To reiterate: Moceefus's *sigh* and my agreement had nothing to do with your expressed sentiments. You are perfectly entitled to those. What they had to do with was the fact that just a couple of posts after people said how tired we all are of people saying nothing more useful than "I won't buy the game because it sux", you come along and say "I won't buy the game because it sux!"

So we commented on the fact that you apparently didn't read the thread before making your own comment, and your only reply is to call us names.

That is why you're getting all the commentary now.



@ robbo180265: An SH5 facepalm! Gotta love it!

[peteuplink]

Originally Posted by Nisgeis

Well, I took your advice and looked up on that there internet what 'holding out' meant and much to my surprise, it actually meant exactly what I thought it did. It doesn't mean 'waiting for' it means to continue to resist something.

If someone is not buying the game because the DRM would not allow them to play it, so they couldn't run it, then that's a perfectly sensible thing to do. If someone is able to run the game, but has not bought it, then that person has made that choice to not buy a game they could play and they can be said to be holding out. Usually the update on the 'holdout' is usually along the lines of:

I'm holding out quite nicely thankyou. SH5 is the buggiest game ever and the war only goes upto 1943. Seriously who set it so you can't dive your boat if you are on the bridge... etcetera.

So, you can see that simple update just turns into a bash of SH5.

If people want to post 'I'm still holding out because I have iron will and have taken an oath to never buy a product with DRM' then fine. Very few posts are along those lines though.

When it was suggested people actually tell Ubisoft that they didn't like the DRM, there was active resistance against that.



If they don't care, they won't be posting here.



No, that's really not the way I put it. To correct your football analogy with my reasoning it would be:

Football Fan A does not buy a ticket, because he is prevented from travelling to the game or entering the ground by the football club. Fan A does not buy a ticket, because he would be unable to enjoy the game.

Football Fan B does not buy a ticket, because some other people are prevented from travelling to the game or entering the football ground. Although Fan B could enjoy the game himself, he instead spends time posting on a bicycle repair forum about how they are finding holding out easy because the manager of the club doesn't know what he's doing and the players are all a bunch of overpaid ponces who would only run after a football if it had a Hello! magazine contract attached to it. The club's going downhill and it won't be long until the club is relegated and that means bye bye fat TV contract and hello bankrupcy and in the mean time he's going back to watching cricket, where they play properly.



More so until you get a better gaming machine though right?

You've missed the point entirely.

Taking your football fans: Fan A cannot attend the game because he can't get there so wouldn't waste the money on a ticket. But if he won an all expenses paid trip to see his favorite team play, with transport laid on so he doesn't have to travel, he'd willingly go, because he is a football fan.

Fan B is in a similar situation. He won't buy a ticket because other people are prevented from attending the game, and he doesn't want to go on his own, so he boycotts the game. But if he won an all expense paid trip, with laid on transport, and the opportunity to bring his mates who can't ordinarily attend, he'd take it, because he is a football fan.

Both of these examples are football fans. But again you've not considered person C: someone who isn't a football fan. Sure they may glance at the back page of the newspaper from time to time, but they don't have any real interest in the sport, and wouldn't attend a match even if they did get the aforementioned all expenses paid trip to a match. This person isn;t holding out by not attending the match, he just isn't that bothered because football isn't for him. He may watch something similar like Rugby, but not football.

So lets put these into Sh5 terms:

Fan A: would be people who want the game, but their PC can't run it. (either for hardware of DRM reasons) and are waiting til they get a PC capable of running it.

Fan B: would be people who want the game but refuse to buy it because of the DRM, and are waiting for it to be removed.

Person C: Would be people that just aren't interested. That would be me. I have no intentions of buying SH5, not because of the DRM, or the fact that my PC is nearly 10 years old and struggles to run SH4. Nope, none of that. I've not interest in buying SH5 because I've seen it in action at my friends house, I've read multiple reviews of it, and I've heard all the reports of bugs and other problems. I admit when the game was first announced I was interested, but once I found out more about it, I decided that it wasn't for me. I may have a passing interest in how the game is progressing (like the guy who occasionally glances at the football scores in the back of the newspaper), and to this end, when I visit the SH3 and SH4 forums, I drop by the SH5 forum out of curiosity, but that's as far as my interest goes.

I'm not holding out. I just quite frankly don't care, and wouldn't have even bothered posting again if you hadn't misunderstood my meaning.

[Nisgeis]

Originally Posted by peteuplink

You've missed the point entirely.

No, I haven't. You're just using a poor analogy to argue the point. The concept of 'needing a stable internet connection to play a game' and 'not having a stable internet connection' is quite a simple concept and really does not need a bad analogy to muddy the waters. Here, I'll show you:

Originally Posted by peteuplink

Taking your football fans: Fan A cannot attend the game because he can't get there so wouldn't waste the money on a ticket. But if he won an all expenses paid trip to see his favorite team play, with transport laid on so he doesn't have to travel, he'd willingly go, because he is a football fan.

Taking your football fans: Fan A cannot play the game because he doesn't have an internet connection so wouldn't waste the money on the game. But if he won a free copy of the game, with free installation of a stable internet connection capable of playing the game, he'd willingly play, because he is subsim fan.

Originally Posted by peteuplink

Fan B is in a similar situation. He won't buy a ticket because other people are presented from attending the game, and he doesn't want to go on his own, so he boycotts the game. But if he won an all expense paid trip, with laid on transport, and the opportunity to bring his mates who can't ordinarily attend, he'd take it, because he is a football fan.

Fan B is in a completely different situation. He won't buy a ticket because other people are prevented from playing the game, and he doesn't want to play on his own even though there are lots of other people already playing, so he boycotts the game. But if he won a stable internet connection, which he already has and a stable internet connection for all his mates, some of which also already have a stable internet connection, he'd play it, because he is a subsim fan.

Originally Posted by peteuplink

Both of these examples are football fans. But again you've not considered person C: someone who isn't a football fan. Sure they may glance at the back page of the newspaper from time to time, but they don't have any real interest in the sport, and wouldn't attend a match even if they did get the aforementioned all expenses paid trip to a match. This person isn;t holding out by not attending the match, he just isn't that bothered because football isn't for him. He may watch something similar like Rugby, but not football.

Both of these examples are subsim fans. But again you've not considered person C: someone who isn't a subsim fan. Sure they may glance at the subsim forums from time to time, but they don't have any real interest in the genre, and wouldn't play a subsim even if they did get the aforementioned stable internet connection which they possibly already have anyway. This person isn't holding out by not playing the game, he just isn't that bothered because subsims aren't for him. He may play something similar like XBox's ZOMG Zombie Eliminator, but not a subsim.

They aren't likely to post here then are they, so why are we discussing them?

Originally Posted by peteuplink

So lets put these into Sh5 terms:

Fan A: would be people who want the game, but their PC can't run it. (either for hardware of DRM reasons) and are waiting til they get a PC capable of running it.

If your PC cannot run a game, that's not related to DRM.

Originally Posted by peteuplink

Fan B: would be people who want the game but refuse to buy it because of the DRM, and are waiting for it to be removed.

Yes, they are the 'hold out crowd'. Those that can play, but choose not to.

Originally Posted by peteuplink

Person C: Would be people that just aren't interested. That would be me. I have no intentions of buying SH5, not because of the DRM, or the fact that my PC is nearly 10 years old and struggles to run SH4. Nope, none of that. I've not interest in buying SH5 because I've seen it in action at my friends house, I've read multiple reviews of it, and I've heard all the reports of bugs and other problems. I admit when the game was first announced I was interested, but once I found out more about it, I decided that it wasn't for me. I may have a passing interest in how the game is progressing (like the guy who occasionally glances at the football scores in the back of the newspaper), and to this end, when I visit the SH3 and SH4 forums, I drop by the SH5 forum out of curiosity, but that's as far as my interest goes.

And there we have it! The inevitable bash. What have all of those negative comments got to do with 'holding out'? By your own submissions, you are not holding out, so you are only posting in this thread to bash SH5. As I said, I have no objection to people who complain that the DRM is stopping them from playing, but I do object to using this thread as a means to bash SH5 by those that have no intention of buying it.

This is a good community, made great by it's members and we don't need so much negativity. Negativity is infectious and if it's not battled it will take hold and infect everything. We have had lots of examples of people who just post to bash, so when someone says 'I can't start the game, what did I do wrong?' among the helpful replies, you get one who says 'You bought the game, you moron, that's what you did wrong. All you idiots desrve everything you get'. That's really not helpful. Although if it was a simple 'You bought the game?' then that would be humurous. Depending on which way the wind was blowing.

Originally Posted by peteuplink

I'm not holding out. I just quite frankly don't care, and wouldn't have even bothered posting again if you hadn't misunderstood my meaning.

I completely understood the meaning of your post. You chose a poor analogy and then went way beyond the scope of the analogy making it absurd. Choosing an analogy is like choosing a car. Get the wrong car and you won't be able to put scaffolding poles in the back, because what you really needed was an estate. Oh, that didn't really help to explain did it... perhaps that was a bad anaology?

As I said, the concepts we are dealing with are not so complex as to require analogies to cars or football matches. Who'd buy a car with no steering wheel? Well, no one, obviously so that's a poor analogy. Everyone here is capable of understanding what is being discussed and can discuss it calmly.

[codmander]

not a penny more than $9.99. current price $19.00 so a ways to go yet maybe drm will be gone by then also sh3 still rocks.....untill

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by Nisgeis

. Everyone here is capable of understanding what is being discussed and can discuss it calmly.

I never did understand why everyone on this forum is so obsessed with analogies. 99.9% of the time when someone starts out a sentence with "It's just like..." you can bet that it's absolutely nothing like what they're about to say.

SH5 is not a car without a steering wheel. It's not a football match. It's not <insert game title here>. It's SH5.

Analogies suck. I have as much contempt for them as I do for "immersion."

[Takao]

At this time,that is $9.99 too much.

I was hoping for an add-on with the Type XI and XXI, however, Ubisoft has stopped supporting the game, so there isn't even a third patch planned.

So, take me off the hold-out list, as I have no interest in the game any more. Besides, I have SHIII & IV, so I don't really see the need to get V. Aside of the pretty graphics, SHV has less to offer than the other two. Well, I'll play but only if I get a free copy from a friend, but that is not likely to happen.

Besides with Starcraft II just days away and Civilization V a month or two away, I have to keep cash handy to purchase them.

[DavyJonesFootlocker]

Man, I'm waiting for Ubi to bring out that new Oleg Maddox Battle of Britain flight sim. They better not screw THAT one up.