Report: Israel attacks flotilla, 10 die

[Dowly]

Just answer the question.

[tater]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

Anywhere on earth? I don't trust all cops, I mean there are a lot of crooked police forces on this planet.

And btw, why are you, the freedom-lovin' Ah-mu-ri-cans all of a sudden in favour of commissars coming and taking away your precious freedom? Can I send cops take away your freedom?

I didn't say I was in favor of it. I said in fact that for the scenario in question the person detained is in fact innocent of ANY wrongdoing, and that the authorities in the scenario are the ones at fault.

Do you attack them, yes, or no?

Can you send cops to take away my freedom? If I am overmatched by the cop's power, then I will cooperate fully with them when you send them, then have my lawyer eat them for lunch.

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by tater

If I am overmatched by the cop's power, then I will cooperate fully with them when you send them,

That's an interesting point. If your ship is attacked in international waters and is boarded by say cops or commandoes, you tater would make an estimation of whether or not you could take them in a battle. You would see the commandoes, they don't look so tough. You would see the're armed but notice that hey, they only have paintball guns. WTF, you'd think, are they kidding? As they'd board your ship you'd take anything you could reach, a piece of wood maybe and start beating on their silly butts.

However, at this point the commandoes would deduce that you're being a lethal threat to them and produce a lethal handgun from the ankle holster you missed on your initial estimation.

[tater]

And I'd deserve what I got in that case.

Answer the question.

Originally Posted by tater

And I'd deserve what I got in that case.

Well, YOU would deserve it.

[SteamWake]

Originally Posted by Dowly

Furthermore, there's a video floating around with aftermath footage of metal rods lying around aswell as somekind of homemade slingshots..

Shame you have to go out and find this stuff. No wonder media is dying.

[Onkel Neal]

Four more BPRs...why do you guys keep showering OTH with attention and then report his posts?

I cannot brig him just for entertainment value, ya know.

[Thomen]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Four more BPRs...why do you guys keep showering OTH with attention and then report his posts?

I cannot brig him just for entertainment value, ya know.

Well Neal, in that case, maybe you should bestow a new forum title on him.. something along the line of "Comical Ali"

[tater]

We've established that OTH would in fact cooperate fully and not attack. Got it.

Again, the raid itself is not the issue here, just what the raided people want. They wanted to be attacked, and ideally some killed. That as the goal of the Islamists.

That's why the raid was in fact so stupid as executed. They should have waited until the ships were closer ashore, for one. They should have been aware that the real point was to lure Israel to harm them and done everything to avoid that result. IMO, I'd have let them enter territorial waters, then forced them to stop or be disabled, then disable the ship in the least violent way possible (ramming with a small craft so the vessel took on water?)

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Cambaz

wow Israel attacked a natural Turkish Supply ship in international waters and killed 9 but you are saying Turkiye is guilty, Turkey suppose to keep away their ships from Gazza shouldn't sent any supply to Gazza hmm, I think this is a little awkward and sounds like a little racist my German friend you are very far away from Middle East and please go read some history first, than make comments about Turkiye and its Honorable Kemalist Military, M. Kemal ATATURK raised this nation on 1923 and we create miracles against wolds super powers UK, France, Italy, Japan and many more countries I dont give a s**** about fundemental islamist AKP but you have to know this Kemalist born Army and nation still supporting Republic, Democracy and Law let me tell you something if u are a ship owner and you are sailing in Mediterranean international waters than a group of Israeli, Trinidad Toboggan, Palestinian, Spanish marines or Navy Commandos started to board your ship without your permission what will you do ? try to defend your ship carrying your flag or watch what will happen ? please stop talking c*** about Turkiyes position in this situation and stop making propaganda against Turkish Armed Forces and Turkiye and its citizens... Turkiye is the closest Ally to Israel in Middle East but they did that because of AKP you can't say to kick of a Nation from anywhere they did a big mistake and they will understand what they did, Turkiye don't declare war against Israel or grow a hatred against Israel like other things like Germany did when in WW II, just AKP did something in its own rights but this Democratic and secularist people doesn't support any movement of AKP so please do not say Turkiye should be kicked of from NATO or any other things, making generalization only shows your low knowledge, Turkiye is secularistic and will stay secularist and its Kemalist army defend our Fatherland from anything wants to break or damage this rule...

I am not that naive as you imply. I have been in Turkey, mainly in Istanbul, anbkara as well as the central-Anatolian areas and the Eastern kurdish areas. that was in the early and mid 90s, and I was no tourist, but with a group pf British-Belgian correspondents. Back then, there was already a huge differen ce between the few metropoles, which were pretty much Westernised, and the rural places, where around 80% and more of your population live. The latter territories and population there are extremely conservative both in patriarchalic and Islamic regard. These were the grounds were the AKP has risen from - it were not the cities, bu7t the countryside where consrvative Islamic spirit always has just slept over othe winter of Ataturk'S time - it was never goine away, it just evaded, and laid in wait. With the rise of the AKP, fundamentalism moved from the countryside into the cities, taking over the state'S highest offices, legislation, and immediately starting to work on reducing the status of the military which by your constitution is the guardian of secular state order in Atatürk's vision of what turkey should be like, as a state.

I compare my own experiences at location from 15, 18 years ago, with turkey as it is in the present. And right by this time gap I see the massive, most fundamental change the AKP has already brought while making it's fundamentalistic doctrine and reversing of Atatürk's experiment (which has failed) unavailable to crticial analysis by demanding the freedom for it'S religious operation by refering to "democracy".

So do not tell me about the sociological influence of the AKP, some bits and pieces I really have learned about it.

"Democracy is just like a train which you get off when you reach your destination. The mosques are our barracks, the minarets are our bayonets, the domes are our helmets and the faithful are our soldiers."

Do you know who has said this? It was your own current prime minister Recep Tayyip Erdoghan. And he also said this, when being asked about the European assumtoion that there could be something like a "moderate Islam":

"These descriptions are very ugly, it is offensive and an insult to our religion. There is no moderate or immoderate Islam. Islam is Islam and that’s it."

Since he is in power, the guardian of your constitutional secularism, the army, has been thrown back, the quota of women in high public offices and state offices has signficantly decreased, patriarchalic networks in the admimnstration system hinders women's careers more than before, the headscarf for women was actively made more attractive and partially making it mandatory and trying to allow it in instances (education sector) where for the protection of secularism it was forbidden (to separate state'S auhtority and religious claims for power); Erdoghan has repeatedly confronted the US, has closed ties with the regime in Syria, legitmised the regime in Iran, defends the Iranian weapon program, and tries to sharpen his profile by winning the admiration of the crowds when cooperating with terror organisations like Hamas and Hezbollah - and then making a big show when the Israelis no longer trust Turkey.

I'm sorry, but Turkey no longer is a trustworthy ally, nor is it's political-religious ambition compatibel with Western values and policies. I thank Turkey for several decades of being secular, and being a trustworthy and solid ally of NATO. But with the AKP arriving, it has set a course that no longer can be ours. And if I am allowed to give one advise to the Turks, then this: get rid of the AKP and it's doctrine and move back to the path of establishing a truly secular society - which you currently are loosing. But that is like calling in an empty desert, i know. The AKP will try to give you the benefits of modern living conditions, if it can - but only at the price of leading your minds back into the medieval and putting your critical intellect back into Islamic chains and the stagnation and apathy your society has suffered from since over one thousand years.

And this incident offcoast Gaza, I stick with my assessement of the general situation. It is a provocation designed to enforce this and no other reaction from Israel, and Turkey did not stay away from cooperating in this dirty trick in order to raise it's profile and popularity with the mob on Middle-Eastern streets. If this realyl would have been about aid dloveries for Gaza, they would have accepted the transportaiton method offered by the Israelis days in advance, and again in hours of radio communication before the raid began. But a peaceful delivery of these goods was the last thing that they wanted. that they rated the propaganda score higher than the humanitarian aid, tells you something about these initiator's real motives. Well, maybe not you, but many of us. It has become a well-established pattern of modern antisemitism, never to be heared when Palestinian terrorists intentionally try to kill Israeli civilians and as many of them as they can, but crying wolf when Israel responds and even then tries to avoid to taregt civilians although the terrori9sts are hiding behind children and women and try to get them killed by israeli fire so that the4y again can score in the propaganda war.

After all, bunch of dead Jews is still very acceptable to the world, but some muhammeddan mob claiming to be offended when not being seen as the naval of the universe - that is catastrophe second to none! Jewish self-defence is a crime against Muslim mankind, you see.

[Cambaz]

Originally Posted by Skybird

I am not that naive as you imply. I have been in Turkey, mainly in Istanbul, anbkara as well as the central-Anatolian areas and the Eastern kurdish areas. that was in the early and mid 90s, and I was no tourist, but with a group pf British-Belgian correspondents. Back then, there was already a huge differen ce between the few metropoles, which were pretty much Westernised, and the rural places, where around 80% and more of your population live. The latter territories and population there are extremely conservative both in patriarchalic and Islamic regard. These were the grounds were the AKP has risen from - it were not the cities, bu7t the countryside where consrvative Islamic spirit always has just slept over othe winter of Ataturk'S time - it was never goine away, it just evaded, and laid in wait. With the rise of the AKP, fundamentalism moved from the countryside into the cities, taking over the state'S highest offices, legislation, and immediately starting to work on reducing the status of the military which by your constitution is the guardian of secular state order in Atatürk's vision of what turkey should be like, as a state.

I compare my own experiences at location from 15, 18 years ago, with turkey as it is in the present. And right by this time gap I see the massive, most fundamental change the AKP has already brought while making it's fundamentalistic doctrine and reversing of Atatürk's experiment (which has failed) unavailable to crticial analysis by demanding the freedom for it'S religious operation by refering to "democracy".

So do not tell me about the sociological influence of the AKP, some bits and pieces I really have learned about it.

"Democracy is just like a train which you get off when you reach your destination. The mosques are our barracks, the minarets are our bayonets, the domes are our helmets and the faithful are our soldiers."

Do you know who has said this? It was your own current prime minister Recep Tayyip Erdoghan. And he also said this, when being asked about the European assumtoion that there could be something like a "moderate Islam":

"These descriptions are very ugly, it is offensive and an insult to our religion. There is no moderate or immoderate Islam. Islam is Islam and that’s it."

Since he is in power, the guardian of your constitutional secularism, the army, has been thrown back, the quota of women in high public offices and state offices has signficantly decreased, patriarchalic networks in the admimnstration system hinders women's careers more than before, the headscarf for women was actively made more attractive and partially making it mandatory and trying to allow it in instances (education sector) where for the protection of secularism it was forbidden (to separate state'S auhtority and religious claims for power); Erdoghan has repeatedly confronted the US, has closed ties with the regime in Syria, legitmised the regime in Iran, defends the Iranian weapon program, and tries to sharpen his profile by winning the admiration of the crowds when cooperating with terror organisations like Hamas and Hezbollah - and then making a big show when the Israelis no longer trust Turkey.

I'm sorry, but Turkey no longer is a trustworthy ally, nor is it's political-religious ambition compatibel with Western values and policies. I thank Turkey for several decades of being secular, and being a trustworthy and solid ally of NATO. But with the AKP arriving, it has set a course that no longer can be ours. And if I am allowed to give one advise to the Turks, then this: get rid of the AKP and it's doctrine and move back to the path of establishing a truly secular society - which you currently are loosing. But that is like calling in an empty desert, i know. The AKP will try to give you the benefits of modern living conditions, if it can - but only at the price of leading your minds back into the medieval and putting your critical intellect back into Islamic chains and the stagnation and apathy your society has suffered from since over one thousand years.

n this incident offcoats Gaza, I stick with my assessement of the general situation. It is a provocation designed to enforce this and no other reaction from Israel, and Turkey did not stay away from cooperating in this dirty trick in order to raise it's profile and popularity with the mob on Middle-Eastern streets. If this realyl would have been about aid dloveries for Gaza, they would have accepted the transportaiton method offered by the Israelis days in advance, and again in hours of radio communication before the raid began. But a peaceful delivery of these goods was the last thing that they wanted.

you are missing a important point in here AKP in NOT TURKIYE I did not choose them, can you believe a person that says "The mosques are our barracks, the minarets are our bayonets, the domes are our helmets and the faithful are our soldiers."yes I accept ignorance and darkness in a high level in my country but this does not means Turkiye is a Rogue country and guilty please stop it...

[Weiss Pinguin]

Originally Posted by Thomen

Well Neal, in that case, maybe you should bestow a new forum title on him.. something along the line of "Comical Ali"

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Four more BPRs...why do you guys keep showering OTH with attention and then report his posts?

I cannot brig him just for entertainment value, ya know.

Then at least be clever: sell tickets. Pays for some of your running server costs.

Originally Posted by Skybird

After all, bunch of dead Jews is still very acceptable to the world,

You do understand the irony of you saying that and being, you know, German, and stuff?