Report: Israel attacks flotilla, 10 die

[eskachig]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

Interesting first message.

Well, google brought me to your fine forum, true.

Does this only apply to the Israeli commandos or also the people in the aid convoy?

The people in the aid convoy have the right to defend themselves against violence, true, but in this case they initiated it.

What about people legally defending their ship being shot to death by invaders?

Those fine folks did start the violence first you know. They can be described as war casualties, I suppose. Soldiers are shot to death by invaders for legally defending their countries all the time. Still legal. Not that I'm saying the boarding wasn't legal in the first place, which I think it was.

So Israel can do anything, other countries (including North Korea) can't do anything. I get it now.

North Korea can do whatever it wants, but its actions, just like Israel's may lead to war with other sovereign states. Does anyone wish to go to war over this? Who?

If I were to commit armed resistance I'd be wielding a little bit more then just a piece of pipe. The outcome would be very different too I can guarantee that.

Thanks mr internet tough guy. A pipe is a pretty decent hand weapon actually, as the legions of folks who've clubbed to death will attest to. Getting hit with a metal pipe is something I'd really like to avoid myself. Of course, if they had firearms we wouldn't even ben talking about this in the first place, and the Israelis would've machine-gunned the ship before touching it.

That's right, the Israelis messed up. Good to see you agreeing on that.

Well of course they messed up, the operation clearly got out of their control. But at the same time, the people up on deck got the battle they wanted, and I don't feel bad for them, nor do I feel their rights were violated. I do expect some careers taking a hit here though, clear failure to control the situation.

When was the last time cops killed people in your country for non-lethal resistance? Lets say people protest on the street and refuse to leave, you'd say it's ok for the cops to open up on them with lethal force?

Of course not, but that's not what happened either. Cops in mine, or any other country, would respond with lethal force when faced with same - which these soldiers were. Indeed, cops in US are a good deal more trigger happy.

I guess the Israelis should stop conducting illegal murder operations on international waters then, eh?

I don't know whether this blockade makes sense, but while it's in place of course the Israeli military needs to interdict vessels.

[L.T]

Originally Posted by eskachig

Well, google brought me to your fine forum, true.

The people in the aid convoy have the right to defend themselves against violence, true, but in this case they initiated it.

Those fine folks did start the violence first you know. They can be described as war casualties, I suppose. Soldiers are shot to death by invaders for legally defending their countries all the time. Still legal. Not that I'm saying the boarding wasn't legal in the first place, which I think it was.

North Korea can do whatever it wants, but its actions, just like Israel's may lead to war with other sovereign states. Does anyone wish to go to war over this? Who?

Thanks mr internet tough guy. A pipe is a pretty decent hand weapon actually, as the legions of folks who've clubbed to death will attest to. Getting hit with a metal pipe is something I'd really like to avoid myself. Of course, if they had firearms we wouldn't even ben talking about this in the first place, and the Israelis would've machine-gunned the ship before touching it.

Well of course they messed up, the operation clearly got out of their control. But at the same time, the people up on deck got the battle they wanted, and I don't feel bad for them, nor do I feel their rights were violated. I do expect some careers taking a hit here though, clear failure to control the situation.

Of course not, but that's not what happened either. Cops in mine, or any other country, would respond with lethal force when faced with same - which these soldiers were. Indeed, cops in US are a good deal more trigger happy.

I don't know whether this blockade makes sense, but while it's in place of course the Israeli military needs to interdict vessels.

L.T

[eskachig]

Originally Posted by Zachstar

They had raised the white flag video shows it happening before most of the violence happened.

What does the white flag matter exactly? Just watch the video - the first solder gets attacked before he even gets to the deck! If they were inviting a parlay or surrendering that's not how you do it.

Now turkey says its going to send the navy with them next time? What is Israel going to do? Land a commando unit on a combat navy vessel and it will be wiped out within moments. Followed likely by a vampire US is not going to help Israel fight againt a war it starts in international waters. That would leave them open to attack from its neighbors. Its defensive situation just went from crap to utter ****

Source please. I seriously doubt Turkish navy is going to attempt a blockade run, but in that case of course there wouldn't be a commando fast roping down, there would be a missile duel or an air strike.

[Merchant Raider]

Hi Eskachig
welcome to our fine forum and hope you will stay around cause we do have some great topics which people can read or answer,but the question begs to be answered are you here to do a PR job for the isreals ?
regards

[Skybird]

Welcome aboard subsim, eskachig. Good first post!

[eskachig]

Originally Posted by msxyz

No, a police force would have come equipped with a different set of body armor (like that used by riot control units which is designed to minimize bash damage), gas grenades, stun batoons, etc...

I have never, ever, seen a naval boarding team from any nations arrive in riot gear. I'm not even sure there is a variant suitable for navy warfare. Anyway, they did come with some non-lethal options apparently, but the situation outgrew them.

Giving paintball guns or rubber bullets to soldiers is a pretty stupid thing. The moment they realize an angry mob is not stopping to the threat of being hit with some rubber balls they will switch to standard 'man stopper' bullets.

Well yes, cops switch to their sidearms in this situation as well. It's not just common sense, it's what you're trained and expected to do.

Besides, knowing the usual environment in which these commanods operate it was clear it would end this way. They are trained to fight in close quarters against guerilla units and irregulars disguised as innocent civilians or hiding behind them. They're trained to expect a booby trap right around every corner. In this cases, a split second could make the difference between life and death. That's why they're trained to shoot first and ask later.

These are naval special forces, they are trained to board hostile vessels. Which this was. There was no shooting first and asking later, in fact once shooting started everything stopped right away. You can watch it on the video, the order of events is quite clear. There is a long beating before any shots are fired, but within seconds of opening fire the military has control of the situation.

Clearly the vessel should've been boarded in a more aggressive manner, but that's beside the point.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Merchant Raider

Hi Eskachig
welcome to our fine forum and hope you will stay around cause we do have some great topics which people can read or answer,but the question begs to be answered are you here to do a PR job for the isreals ?
regards

He answered reasonably, and calm. His arguments are solid and well thought out.

Maybe you accuse him only because your argument is weaker?

[Merchant Raider]

Its a PR spin we are getting from him

[eskachig]

Originally Posted by Merchant Raider

Hi Eskachig
welcome to our fine forum and hope you will stay around cause we do have some great topics which people can read or answer,but the question begs to be answered are you here to do a PR job for the isreals ?
regards

I am a Californian engineer, not Jewish, and actually fairly liberal. I think Israel needs to find a solution to the occupation, because clearly things can't go on. Usually, I'm defending the Palestinians in these internet debates, and honestly it's almost puzzling to find myself on the other side.

But as far as I can tell, the Israeli military did their job fairly professionally here. In general, I don't have many bad things to say about the IDF and their conduct, even if I think Israeli policy on the Palestinian issue is total crap.

As far as the Palestinians are concerned, I agree with many of their goals, but detest their methods and leadership.

Too many people on both sides are unwilling to put peace above principles and compromise on things.

But yeah, looks like an interesting place you have here, looking forward to looking around more.

[Merchant Raider]

No Skybird
i will listen to the two sides and then decide, i do think isreal has the right to defend and that people have a right to protest ( not with bombs or guns ).And as i said earlier i have great respect for the IDF and have read books on them so i am not getting on his back because i think he is a spokesman i am just interested to see were he is coming from

regards

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Merchant Raider

Its a PR spin we are getting from him

Then it should be easy for you to counter his arguments point by point - with convincing own arguments.

Just making claims, personal accusations, and pointing fingers - is not good enough to qualify for "argument".

[eskachig]

Originally Posted by Merchant Raider

No Skybird
i will listen to the two sides and then decide, i do think isreal has the right to defend and that people have a right to protest ( not with bombs or guns ).
I question that the only posts are on this question ?
regards

It's pretty simple really. I've been out of touch with the news for a couple of days and was doing some research the situation - searching for something like "israel flotilla raid" showed up with this thread in one of the top results and something someone said caught my eye. I read the thread, wanted to respond, so I registered.

I do like military history and simulation games, so I'm sure I'll find something interesting here anyway.

Originally Posted by eskachig

The people in the aid convoy have the right to defend themselves against violence, true, but in this case they initiated it.

How exactly? By having the right to defend against violence with lethal force if necessary which wasn't used btw?

Those fine folks did start the violence first you know. They can be described as war casualties, I suppose. Soldiers are shot to death by invaders for legally defending their countries all the time. Still legal. Not that I'm saying the boarding wasn't legal in the first place, which I think it was.

Which they were entitled to do according to law whereas the invaders are clearly in breach of all laws, maritime and other.

The Israeli commandos can be described as murderers, aggressors and genocidists who can be legally killed.

The attack was against all laws, which is why Netanyahu is begging for mercy in global media right now. Not that this will stop the swift dealing of justice against Israel, the most murderous country of Middle East.

North Korea can do whatever it wants, but its actions, just like Israel's may lead to war with other sovereign states. Does anyone wish to go to war over this? Who?

The whole world wants Israel to sieze to exist.

Thanks mr internet tough guy. A pipe is a pretty decent hand weapon actually, as the legions of folks who've clubbed to death will attest to. Getting hit with a metal pipe is something I'd really like to avoid myself. Of course, if they had firearms we wouldn't even ben talking about this in the first place, and the Israelis would've machine-gunned the ship before touching it.

What you want a piece of me? If you want to avoid defensive action you should not take part in murderous operations which may very well lead to retaliations.

Well of course they messed up, the operation clearly got out of their control. But at the same time, the people up on deck got the battle they wanted, and I don't feel bad for them, nor do I feel their rights were violated. I do expect some careers taking a hit here though, clear failure to control the situation.

I don't feel bad for any Israeli people, or Jews for that matter, now or ever. You're all clearly a bunch of murderous, law breaking criminals and murderers.

Of course not, but that's not what happened either. Cops in mine, or any other country, would respond with lethal force when faced with same - which these soldiers were. Indeed, cops in US are a good deal more trigger happy.

Proof?

I don't know whether this blockade makes sense, but while it's in place of course the Israeli military needs to interdict vessels.

And murder people and break the law. I get it.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by eskachig

Too many people on both sides are unwilling to put peace above principles and compromise on things.

That summarises it in a one-liner.

But yeah, looks like an interesting place you have here, looking forward to looking around more.

Yep. Running the show since three millenia or even longer. It's not as if the inhabitants of that region are performing a really new hobby.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by eskachig

I do like military history and simulation games, so I'm sure I'll find something interesting here anyway.

In case you have not already noticed, there are three subsections in this forum focussing on other (non-naval) games, flightsims and tanksims as well.