LuftWolf and Amizaur's Realism Mod Poll #1: Mk54 vs. Mk46

[LuftWolf]

Molon Labe has found that changing the mk46 torpedo to the mk54 torpedo prohibits the player, when commanding FFG, from telling the AI controlled helo to use the Mk54 in its inventory as the last torpedo drop waypoint, meaning you can only assign two torpedo drop waypoints (mk50's) to your AI helo. You can still drop the Mk54 from the Nav Map as usual.

Note: This relate only to AI controlled MH-60R's and does not affect in any way the player-controlled MH-60.

[TLAM Strike]

I've only used a drop waypoint maybe three times on the FFG. On the P-3/MH-60 maybe once.

2 MK50s and 1 MK54 is a good loadout.

[Molon Labe]

The thing to keep in mind here is that if you order the MH-60 to drop the weapon using the Nav map, the chopper pilot will foolishly enter the SAM range of the target sub. Unless the target player really has his hands full, there would be no excuse for him not to be able to shoot the helo down before it drops the Mk54.

It's better to have a weapon that works consistently than to have one the cannot be deliverd except in extraordinary circumstances.

[LuftWolf]

I haven't play MP yet, so I'm not sure, but is it common practice for players when they know they are facing air units to stay at PD and scan the skies with the periscope?

How else would they know they are being targeted by your helo at that time?

I almost never spend time at PD so I guess you'd get me all the time.

[Molon Labe]

Originally Posted by LuftWolf

I haven't play MP yet, so I'm not sure, but is it common practice for players when they know they are facing air units to stay at PD and scan the skies with the periscope?

How else would they know they are being targeted by your helo at that time?

I almost never spend time at PD so I guess you'd get me all the time.

In DW 1.01, unmodded, a sub's only chace of survival if there are air platforms around is to constantly scan the skies. Your mod MIGHT have changed this by reducing DICASS effectiveness, but the improvements in passive performance may have cancelled this out. In any case, unless there is a compelling reason NOT to be at PD, this is what subs will be doing.

[LuftWolf]

I can definately assure you that air platforms will have a MUCH more difficult time finding subs unless there is a ship linking its TA contacts nearby and the reason to be deep is that the thermal layers will probably be much more useful at the extreme ranges of buoys and dipping sonars.

I was dipping 3nm from the Gepard and NOTHING NADA no contact. My FFG picked it up at outside 5nm or so (it was a test scenario not looking specifically at that).

Edit: there is no improvements in passive performance, it is all relative to the sound levels being drastically reduced.

[Molon Labe]

Originally Posted by LuftWolf

I can definately assure you that air platforms will have a MUCH more difficult time finding subs unless there is a ship linking its TA contacts nearby and the reason to be deep is that the thermal layers will probably be much more useful at the extreme ranges of buoys and dipping sonars.


I was dipping 3nm from the Gepard and NOTHING NADA no contact. My FFG picked it up at outside 5nm or so (it was a test scenario not looking specifically at that).

Edit: there is no improvements in passive performance, it is all relative to the sound levels being drastically reduced.

Udaloy FF's are picking up 688's deep under a surface duct at 20 miles. (688I speed 14kts) In unmodded DW, the Udaloy wouldn't detect a 688 at 17kts until it was within 10 miles, presumably with active sonar.

I've also noticed improved performance of the FFG's TACTASS array, detecting Kilos at around 10 miles and tracking a DD from 40 miles.

VLAD performance against Kilos has improved dramatically; they used to be undetectable unless the buoy was right on top, in this mod a VLAD will pick up a Kilo from 2-3 miles (in a bottom limited environment).

I'm not sure if these changes are good or bad yet, but they are there. For sure, the passive sonar capability of surface vessels have improved dramatically, and may even be superior to that of subs...I still need to do a few more dives to be sure of who's TA's are working better. I know the old TB-16 was picking up a 7knot Akula I around 12 miles, the new TB-23 won't do the same job until about 6-7 miles. :hmm:

[LuftWolf]

Molon, surface units did not have passive sonar to speak of in unmodded DW, only the FFG.

You need to be aware that sub speed DRAMATICALLY effects how loud or quiet they are now. So when you do your tests, you need to standardize your speeds to something low, I think, or else you are going to get huge detection ranges because the subs are noisy at speed, but quiet when crawling, the way it should be.

In our mod, a kilo at 8kts is louder than a kilo in the standard DB running at flank. It is similar for other subs as well, as the official sound vs speed effect for diesels was an anemic 5 points at flank. Now it's five points at 7kts for the Kilo.

We simply did not increase the sensitivity of any passive sonar system in the game, so I'm not sure how detection ranges could have increased in any situation for objects making the same noise level.

[PeriscopeDepth]

Note that there is a big difference between a standard and improved Kilo noise level wise.

[LuftWolf]

Hello PD!

Molon, the FFG DID NOT report a Kilo Imp at 3kts to link at 5nm. (Surface duct, lowest sea state).

I am now testing the dipping sonar and vlads as well.

[LuftWolf]

I place two VLADS 1 nm apart.

A Kilo Imp was in the middle moving at 3kts in a surface duct with lowest seastate. At 715 yards I had a single dot. One buoy lost contact at 925 yards. When the sub was 1000 yards from each buoy, neither one had any contacts at all no red dot no activity nothing.

Incidentially, the VLADS didn't pick up the OHP at 9kts at range 5nm. There's yer a Prairie Masker for ya gents.

[Molon Labe]

Okay, I guess didn't appreciate just how steep the sound-speed curves were compared to the hotfix. It'll take some time to figure out just how this impacts the game. You'll probably want to tweak it a bit in future versions based on players' experiences, so I'm going to go ahead an volunteer my subjective judgments.

My first impression of the sound-speed curves as they are now, especially in light of the 688I v Udaloy experience, is that the curves are a bit harsh.

For the SSN's, the curves seem too steep. The SSN's should have a relatively high base noise level with noise that increases with speed at a rather slow rate. I subjectively believe that modern SSN's can travel at moderate (~15kts) transiting speeds without becoming "loud," and that speeds below 10 knots should produce very little additional noise above what the reactor makes at rest.

For SSK's, the base noise level is too high; it should be significantly lower than an SSN at rest and at low speeds(5 knots or less). Unlike the SSN, this noise level should increase rapidly as the speed increases. I subjectively believe the point where an SSK's noise level would be about equal to an SSN's to be in the 7-10 knot range (meaning that in that range, the SSK loses its edge over the SSN, and beyond that range generates enough flow noise that it should detected somewhat easily).

Of course, getting the feel for the steepness of the slope is going to take time, so I'm really just framing the issue as I see it right now. But, the question I have right now is, are we comfortable living in a world where a 688I under the layer cannot travel at moderate speeds as far as 20 miles from a Russian skimmer? I suspect that in real life, it can, and that this is going to sloooowwww gameplay down a lot. Or maybe it won't. Tune in next week...

[LuftWolf]

Molon, thanks very much for your thoughts.

Amizaur and I were actually just emailing about precisely the issue you raised. The knowledge of how to make flatter curves was only very recently unlocked from the DWeditor "unknown" file, so now that we have the tools, I think we can do something very soon. In fact, the hardest work of the creating the templates has been done, any additions to structure would be minor, and values are especially easy to change once they have a home.

In other words, we'll have it soon!

Edit: That is to say, we've had something of this in mind.

[LuftWolf]

Udaloy FF's are picking up 688's deep under a surface duct at 20 miles. (688I speed 14kts) In unmodded DW, the Udaloy wouldn't detect a 688 at 17kts until it was within 10 miles, presumably with active sonar.

I have the FFG picking up the 688(i) at 15 kts at 11nm.

Of course, the regular 688 is a bit louder, especially at speed.

[Molon Labe]

Originally Posted by LuftWolf

I have the FFG picking up the 688(i) at 15 kts at 11nm.

Of course, the regular 688 is a bit louder, especially at speed.

I was actually playing in the 688I, I was just lazy. Sorry.
My environment was a surface duct at about 600 feet, sub at 800 feet. Were you in bottom limited?