DRM a slightly different viewpoint

[Reece]

Originally Posted by IanC
That's why some say it's not really about stopping piracy, but about stopping re-sales. They don't want anybody buying a used copy, everybody must buy it new.

This doesn't add up, if I go to any EB store here in Australia, they have second hand Xbox/Playstation games etc for sale or swap! never have I seen it for PC Games. It is getting rare to find shops here in Australia selling PC games, this is even before the OSP/DRM situation, in EB stores, out of all the walls, isles, etc, only a small corner of a wall is for PC games, the demand for PC games is gone, and now, thanks to this new DRM, it's shrinking even more, other Stores like Big-W, K-Mart, Meyers, they are gone totally!!

[Harmsway!]

Originally Posted by Reece

This doesn't add up, if I go to any EB store here in Australia, they have second hand Xbox/Playstation games etc for sale or swap! never have I seen it for PC Games. It is getting rare to find shops here in Australia selling PC games, this is even before the OSP/DRM situation, in EB stores, out of all the walls, isles, etc, only a small corner of a wall is for PC games, the demand for PC games is gone, and now, thanks to this new DRM, it's shrinking even more, other Stores like Big-W, K-Mart, Meyers, they are gone totally!!

It doesn't make sense to me either. Aren't there already used copies on Ebay? Or does the registration process make it specific to the copy and can't be registered again. If that's the case one time online is all that's needed not continuous DRM nonsense.

[Harmsway!]

Originally Posted by Brag

Considering Ubi's behavior so far, paying for the right to hook up to their server to be able to play SH5 is a bad investement. Not only it is widely reported an unfinished, buggy product, but there is no guarantee of how long Ubi will continue maintaining acccess to their servers.

If you think you are buying by paying for this game, you are badly misinformed.

I agree. That's why I think of it as sudden death. That's why I can't buy it. It's like buying a time bomb and not knowing when it's going off. At what day and hour will it be gone forever?

Of course I want to believe UBI will remove the DRM someday but how can one buy it until then? How can one be sure?

[wetwarev7]

Originally Posted by Der Teddy Bar

wetwarev7,

To repeat a post the always online business model is also about forcing the gamer to buy new version of the software every 12 to 18 months and noted restrict 2nd hand sales, which is your legal right.

EA is as always the leader in all things DRM and their take the piss out of the paying customer web page called "Online Service Updates" outlines what you can expect of Ubisoft.

Ubisoft has proven again and again they have no customer focus and I am sure will cut SH5 free after a year with no patch to enable people to play it offline.

Look at how many games are only a year or two old. Of the older ones most are less than 4 years with only a handful older than that.


I have never read a more patronising piece of garbage in my life as this below.

As background information, the games scheduled for shutdown in March and April 2010 represent less than 0.3% of all peak online players across all EA titles. Despite some people's perception, there is a lot of behind-the-scenes work involved with keeping these older games up and running. We would rather our hard-working engineering and IT staff focus on keeping a positive experience for the other 99.7% of customers playing our more popular games. These decisions to retire games is never easy. The EA development teams and operational staff pour their hearts into these games almost as much as the customers playing them and it is hard to see one retired. We hope you have gotten many hours of enjoyment out of the games and we appreciate your ongoing patronage.


May 11th, 2010 Online Service Shutdown
FIFA 08 for PC
Tiger Woods PGA Tour 07 for Playstation 3 and Xbox 360
Tiger Woods PGA Tour 08 for PC, Playstation 3 and Xbox 360
UEFA Euro 2008 for PC

April 15, 2010 Online Service Shutdown
Burnout 3: Takedown for PlayStation 2
Army of Two for PlayStation 3 (Asia only)

Additionally, the shutdown of Xbox LIVE for Original Xbox consoles and games (scheduled for April 15, 2010) will retire online services for the following titles:

Battlefield 2: Modern Combat for Xbox
Burnout 3: Takedown for Xbox
Madden NFL 09 for Xbox

Previously Shut Down Online Service
Arena Football for PlayStation 2 and Xbox
Arena Football™: Road to Glory for PlayStation 2
Armies of Exigo for PC
Burnout Revenge for PlayStation 2 and Xbox
Burnout™ Dominator for PlayStation Portable
Def Jam for PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360
FIFA 2005 for PC, PlayStation 2 and Xbox
FIFA 06 for PC, PlayStation 2, PlayStation Portable, Xbox and Xbox 360
FIFA 07 for PC, PlayStation Portable, PlayStation 2 and Xbox
FIFA World Cup 2006 for PC, PlayStation 2, PlayStation Portable, Xbox and Xbox 360
Facebreaker for Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3
Fantasy Football 09 for Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3
Fight Night Round 2 for PlayStation 2 and Xbox
Fight Night Round 3 for PlayStation 2, PlayStation Portable and Xbox
Godfather for PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360
Goldeneye: Rogue Agent for Nintendo Game Cube, PlayStation 2 and Xbox
Lord of the Rings: Conquest for PC, PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360
MVP Baseball™ 2005 for PC, PlayStation 2 and Xbox
MVP™ 07 NCAA® Baseball for PlayStation 2 and Xbox
Madden NFL 05 for PC, PlayStation 2 and Xbox
Madden NFL 06 for PC, PlayStation 2, PlayStation Portable, Xbox and Xbox 360
Madden NFL 07 for PC, PlayStation 2, PlayStation 3, PlayStation Portable, Xbox and Xbox 360
Madden NFL 08 for PC, PlayStation 2, PlayStation 3, PlayStation Portable, Wii, Xbox and Xbox 360
Marvel Nemesis: Rise of the Imperfects for PlayStation 2 and Xbox
Medal of Honor Pacific Assault™ for PC
Medal of Honor Rising Sun for PlayStation 2
Mercenaries 2: World in Flames for PC
NASCAR® 05: Chase for the Cup™ for PC, PlayStation 2 and Xbox
NASCAR® 06: Total Team Control for PlayStation 2 and Xbox
NASCAR® 07 for PlayStation 2, PlayStation 3, Xbox and Xbox 360
NASCAR® 08 for PlayStation 2, PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360
NASCAR® 09 for PlayStation 2, PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 (Europe Only)
NBA Live 05 for PC, PlayStation 2 and Xbox
NBA Live 06 for PC, PlayStation 2, PlayStation Portable, Xbox and Xbox 360
NBA Live 07 for PC, PlayStation 2, PlayStation Portable, Xbox and Xbox 360
NBA Live 08 for PC, PlayStation 2, PlayStation Portable and Wii
NBA Live 09 for Wii (Europe only)
NBA Street (2007) for PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360
NBA Street V3 for PlayStation 2 and Xbox
NCAA® Football 05 for PlayStation 2 and Xbox
NCAA® Football 06 for PlayStation 2 and Xbox
NCAA® Football 07 for PlayStation 2, PlayStation Portable and Xbox
NCAA® Football 08 for PlayStation 2 and Xbox
NCAA® Football 09 for PlayStation 2
NCAA® March Madness 06 for PlayStation 2 and Xbox
NCAA® March Madness™ 2005 for PlayStation 2 and Xbox
NCAA® March Madness® 07 for PlayStation 2, Xbox and Xbox 360
NFL Head Coach for PC, PlayStation 2, Xbox
NFL Street 2: Unleashed for PlayStation 2 and Xbox
NFL Street 3 for PlayStation 2
NFL Tour for PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360
NHL® 05 for PC, PlayStation 2 and Xbox
NHL® 06 for PC, PlayStation 2 and Xbox
NHL® 07 for PC, PlayStation 2, PlayStation Portable, Xbox and Xbox 360
NHL® 08 for PC
NHL® 08 for PlayStation 2
Need for Speed: Carbon for PlayStation Portable
Need for Speed: ProStreet for PlayStation Portable
Need for Speed: Underground for PlayStation 2
Need for Speed: Underground 2 for PC, PlayStation 2 and Xbox
Need for Speed: Most Wanted for PlayStation Portable and Xbox
Simpsons for PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360
Tiger Woods PGA TOUR® 05 for PC, PlayStation 2 and Xbox
Tiger Woods PGA TOUR® 06 for PC, PlayStation 2, Xbox and Xbox 360
Tiger Woods PGA TOUR® 07 for PC, PlayStation 2, PlayStation Portable and Xbox
Tiger Woods PGA TOUR® 08 for PlayStation 2 and PlayStation Portable
TimeSplitters 3: Future Perfect for Xbox and PlayStation 2
Total Club Manager 06 for PlayStation 2
UEFA Champions League™ 2004-2005 for PC, PlayStation 2 and Xbox
UEFA Champions League™ 2006-2007 for PlayStation 2 and PlayStation Portable
UEFA Champions League™ 07 for PC and Xbox 360

I didn't say I agreed with it, just that it made more sense than all the other theories.

[IanC]

Originally Posted by Harmsway!

It doesn't make sense to me either. Aren't there already used copies on Ebay? Or does the registration process make it specific to the copy and can't be registered again. If that's the case one time online is all that's needed not continuous DRM nonsense.

Yes apparently Ubisoft binds serial number and user account.
Just Google something like 'DRM prevents resales' and you'll get more detailed information.
Here's an interesting article that touches a little on that problem. http://www.gamespot.com/users/jamysk...m-100-25807107

[IanC]

Originally Posted by Reece

This doesn't add up, if I go to any EB store here in Australia, they have second hand Xbox/Playstation games etc for sale or swap! never have I seen it for PC Games. It is getting rare to find shops here in Australia selling PC games, this is even before the OSP/DRM situation, in EB stores, out of all the walls, isles, etc, only a small corner of a wall is for PC games, the demand for PC games is gone, and now, thanks to this new DRM, it's shrinking even more, other Stores like Big-W, K-Mart, Meyers, they are gone totally!!

I agree Reece, nothing adds up. Unless they're slowly doing away with PC gaming or maybe just Silent Hunter for PC. From what I'm seeing, SH5 is a step in the console direction already.

[Tarnsman]

Originally Posted by Reece

This doesn't add up, if I go to any EB store here in Australia, they have second hand Xbox/Playstation games etc for sale or swap! never have I seen it for PC Games. It is getting rare to find shops here in Australia selling PC games, this is even before the OSP/DRM situation, in EB stores, out of all the walls, isles, etc, only a small corner of a wall is for PC games, the demand for PC games is gone, and now, thanks to this new DRM, it's shrinking even more, other Stores like Big-W, K-Mart, Meyers, they are gone totally!!

I think its not demand thats droped, its supply. Its not as if those XBOX and PS3 titles are available for the PC it seems. Here in the states its the same thing. I wonder how much longer the PC game platform will survive. How many GPUs and such can you sell to support WoW?

It all comes down to control. The PC is a relativly open platform where the console is closed by definition. Personally I dont care for the "games" generally offered on consoles, they are just too simplistic and dont have that replay value like my simulations on PC have. Basically, consoles are like having an arcade in your house -- which is cool, but I lost interrest in arcade games when I was about 20. (and Im not going to meet any new girls in my living room -- not my age anyway)

PC simulations like the Janes series brought me into PCs ten years later and Im still here. So this Ubi DRM thing worries me not just about SH5 but my PC hobby in genral.

[Iron Budokan]

I agree with the general thrust of the arguments being made here. PC gaming is entering very dark days indeed.

[Phantom Mark]

Well a great example of the short sighted approach in this game is this....

I have to work away monday to friday, and in the place I am staying I have no internet connection at all, driving me crazy as you can imagine, which of course means I cannot play SH5 on my lappy whilst away from my main PC at home, and now the weekends are so precious with my family that I dont play games over the weekend, thus rendering my copy of SH5 a useless pile of steaming cr*p quite honestly.

Thankfully I have SH4 on the lappy which runs very nice, cant help but feel very very annoyed at this DRM and will definately not be buying any more of them, in fact I will probably have to resort to a crak for my bought and paid for copy of SH5 so I can actually play it, how bizzare is that ??? very sad when you have to start searching for warez versions of games you have bought and paid for...........

(Yes its monday and I am posting from home as I have a couple of days off from work)

[sabretwo]

I haven't purchased SH5 (and refuse to do so until the DRM is removed), but can someone who purchased the game answer a question for me...

Does the SH5 User Agreement commit UBI to patching the game if the servers are removed or shut down for some reason? If it does state this and UBI doesn't fulfill their end of the agreement, then there could be the makings of a class action suit. On the other hand, if there's no commitment in the User Agreement to patch the game if servers are disabled, then UBI's verbal promise is nothing but meaningless drivel.

If UBI were truly commited to patching the game and honoring the rights of players in the future, it should be clearly stated in the agreement.

[Yak]

I would be extremely sceptical of it. If anything it would be a sweeping 'Ubisoft reserves the right to suspend services without notice or compensation blah blah'

No way they would commit to a guarantee of removing the DRM, no way.

As for the purpose of DRM, not one person here has mentioned what both Ubi and EA have said in their most important communications: That to their stock holders.

They openly state they want to move towards a greater reliance on DLC as a revenue source.

DLC and the micro transaction system is a great money spinner and by forcing a connection, means people have constant access and ease of purchase for it.

They are effectively training their audience to accept the new model.

I think also that ubi's past actions (Assassin's Creed 1 for eg where the game would constantly try to phone home after June 3rd 2008) lead me to not trust their motives with regards to privacy and data mining either.

[McBeck]

It sure is refreshing to see a wellargumented thread on this forum!

Carry on

[Aramike]

Originally Posted by captainprid

Ok, I know a lot of guy's don't like UBI's new digital rights management (DRM) and I can fully understand that. However after a lot of thought, I can also understand Ubi's point of view. SHV is the first game to use full DRM, consequently, it's a new thing and therefore represents change. We have all for a long time been used to the status-quo; you buy a game, you install it, you play it- as long as your PC is up to it, you require nothing further. Howvere, thanks to our old friend TPB and others, it would appear those days are gone.
Put yourself in UBI's shoes, you are solely responsible to your shareholders, you invest a million quid into a game and then some spotty skip rat pirates the same game and you lose potentially 20% of your income; which directly affects future game dev thereby ruining it for all of us......No SHVI (ok judging SHV most probably don't want one) but you see my point.
A few years ago, I bought an EVOIIX, my warranty depended on me buying 99 octane juice from BP, which believe me was a pain when I took a trip to the Scottish Highlands!!! but the point is, I knew about this when I spent nearly £40k on a car.
This isn't a new phenomonon, games for a long time, have at least required you to register on-line. Footy manager has required you to use Steam for a while, admittedly, you have the option not to register on the basis you have to permenantly have the disc in the disc-drive--maybe this is the way that UBI should have gone, given us the option.
In my opinion, DRM is here to stay......One part of me think's this is sad, the other part makes me think that because of this there will be a SHVI sometime 2013. A large proportion of the population now has broadband so from a developer perspective it makes sense and at least they have built in to the game a feature that saves your game if you become disconnected.




Please don't attack me guys, I know a lot of you feel very strongly about this and I don't want this to develop in to another DRM bashing thread. Personally, i'm not overly pleased about it but I would think the pragmatic amongst you may well see a kernel of truth in this???

Well put, except it ultimately comes down to the customer. Ubi can do whatever the hell they want to with DRM, as far as I'm concerned. As we, the consumer, can do whatever the hell we want to with our money.

So pick your poison - lose 20% of your customers due to piracy or lose potentially more due to draconian DRM schemes?

[SubV]

Originally Posted by Tarnsman

Also, why would UBi even want to store all saved games on their servers? That dosnt seem effiecient to me. I can easily store my games on my own computer, what purpose is served by remote game saving?

Because that's the key point of their DRM. They constantly modify your saves to get the mission goals accomplished.

I read somewhere on the net about those who use pirated version of SH5... they cannot progress in campaign. They can't even complete any mission goal, because all the code that does it is server-side.

[Fincuan]

Originally Posted by SubV

Because that's the key point of their DRM. They constantly modify your saves to get the mission goals accomplished.

Nope, nothing that advanced

I read somewhere on the net about those who use pirated version of SH5... they cannot progress in campaign. They can't even complete any mission goal, because all the code that does it is server-side.

See above. The "server side code" is a rumor that started spinning when Ubi initially claimed that their DRM hadn't been cracked and that those who claimed having done so "had an incomplete version of the game". As we later learned this was not the case. The cracked version was full and complete, and advancing in the game was just a matter of "flipping a switch". In pirated games this just had to be done manually because the game couldn't phone home to get a permission to do it. I've heard that such manual editing is not necessary anymore though, as there's a Ubi DRM-server emulator out there.