Would you like to see a WW 1 U-Boat simulation ?

[Frankenstein]

A WW1 Sub Sim?

Sounds like my kinda game. I'd buy it!

[Razman23]

Originally Posted by enigma-e

And just where would be the challenge?

Just banging off steamers w/o any destroyers or other vessels being a serious threat is... tedious, to say the very least.

Have you ever heard of the 'Q Ships'?

These were old merchant ships converted by the Royal Navy to carry hidden guns. They were also made to 'morph' to differnt profiles by moving, adding, modifing smokestacks, cargo boxes, and pilot houses. They even went as far as to repaint the whole ship differnt schemes to confuse the sub commander to think he is looking at a differnt ship.

Back then 'eels' were not too reliable and there was still the 'code of the sea' where the sub captain would order the ship stopped, boarded and searched, crew to abandon and then the ship sunk by the deck gun.

Quit a few German subs got a nasty surprise when the panels on the side of a victum opened and 8 pounder guns started to fire on them. Several subs were sunk by this tactic.

[Deamon]

Originally Posted by Charos

To be honest the first thing that grabbed me was your attention to detail and your desire to make a real simulation rather than a half hearted Game.

The level of ditail that you see now on U31 for example will be 2-3 times biger when it will be finished. There will be ditails everywhere. That's what i call immersion. But wait til you see the interiour modeling. It's even more ditailed.

Only after seeing the project am I now starting to look at WW1 U-boats.

To hear this is very rewarding for me cause that is what i try to achieve with my work and at least partialy it seems to work. Actualy i got alot of aknowledgements and admiration for my work from different people, what i considered as possible but haven't realy expected.

Originally Posted by Deamon

I think in General people of today are simply further removed in time from WW1 than WW2 and have less connection to the people, incidents and events of that time. Not only that but WW1 is not popularised in the media such as books and movies as WW2 is.

I fully agree on this. This is the conclusion i came to at the beginning of my project as i realized there wasn't ever a WWI subsim before and started to wounder why and i'm going to bring this subject back in to the awareness of the people.

Originally Posted by Deamon

Im 36 YO and I agree your target audiance will be the older players who have been there done that and are looking for something MORE.

Yes and at all i think older people have biger pretensions. I see for example alot of the audiance with a naval or maritime background. Who already posseses some of the knowledge that you will learn in the academy and feel full ycomfortable in it and not overwhelemed and might appreciate it to apply their skills in a pas timeframe that is recreated very believable.

Originally Posted by Deamon

Your welcome, It doesnt matter how long it takes - the best things in life by there very nature take the longest to achieve.
Even if we never complete them at least we tried thats all anyone can ever ask of us.

I feel it will occupie a very big part of my life. And i'm glad that i can spend it for it. Check your PM.

Deamon

[Takeda Shingen]

Deamon, I applaud your efforts, and look forward to seeing your work. I am wondering how you plan to implement the practices and standards of international maritime law. For almost the entire first year of the war, Uboats were required to stop transiting merchants and inspect their papers to determine if they were indeed ferrying for the enemy, at which time their seacocks would be opened and the crew set in lifeboats. This seems difficult to implement.

[oRGy]

Not really, unless you plan to have the player hop aboard the merchant.

You'd just get close enough, target the ship, order the no/wo to board and search the ship, wait a few minutes, ship sink.

In my experience its best to handle things abstractly.

[Syxx_Killer]

Originally Posted by oRGy

You'd just get close enough, target the ship, order the no/wo to board and search the ship, wait a few minutes, ship sink.

Or after you send the no/wo aboard, a screen could pop up showing the ship's papers. The player could then determine if the ship is to be sunk.

[magick]

Originally Posted by Deamon

That's maybe true to some extent but that doesn't mean that it will be mutch easyer. The ASW in WWI was also different than in WWII. It can't be compared in any regards. At the end of the war there was even asdic introduced in an experimental way, prior to that the asw ships used their echosounder to detect submarines below them, then they come to the idea to instal the echosounder in the bow and directed it in a curtain angle downwards and there you have your asdic. One of the major threats came from all the mines, hydrophones, and remotely ignited minebundles once the u-boat was located near enough to them via hydrophones from landbases. That way the Channel becomes finaly unpassable. More towards the end of the war mines and net/mine combinations were everywhere. In addition storms riped of more and more mines from their chains and they floated all around. That way even the cleared passages become hazardous to use them. Not to mention the convoysystems. At the beginning it's fairly easy, you just need to dive and you are almost save. At the end the death is everywhere, the death is part of your crew so to say

The ASW was different back then. You might encounter 20 cutters that spread one big net around you and sit there and wait till you run out of oxygen and surface or drive around in that encircled area and throw waterbombs after they located you with the hydrophones. It's good for you

I will write comprehensive articles about it someday when my researches are complete, then you will see. Generaly i see that there is a serious lack of knowledge about WWI submarine warfare and ASW. The purpuose of my site is to close this knowledge gap. It's realy a forgotten era. It's time to fire up the petroleum engines again And what concerns my project; forget the word easy.

Cheers,
Deamon

This forum awakes my interest in WW1 submarines, searched the web and found some interresting facts, if there is a WW1 submarine sim then let me know , greetings

[the_rydster]

Yeah I WW1 mod would be a great idea. The subs would be much more primative and the TDC would have to be replaced with slide rules and tables.

This is an interesting link about 'The first battle of the atlantic' -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_B...f_the_Atlantic

There was some serious stuff going on for sure with several notoroius incidents, the sinking of the Lusitania, the sinking of Llandovery Castle, the Baralong incident etc etc.

[Seeteufel]

Originally Posted by Razman23

Have you ever heard of the 'Q Ships'?

These were old merchant ships converted by the Royal Navy to carry hidden guns. They were also made to 'morph' to differnt profiles by moving, adding, modifing smokestacks, cargo boxes, and pilot houses. They even went as far as to repaint the whole ship differnt schemes to confuse the sub commander to think he is looking at a differnt ship.

Back then 'eels' were not too reliable and there was still the 'code of the sea' where the sub captain would order the ship stopped, boarded and searched, crew to abandon and then the ship sunk by the deck gun.

Quit a few German subs got a nasty surprise when the panels on the side of a victum opened and 8 pounder guns started to fire on them. Several subs were sunk by this tactic.

Extract from the log of "U 82," commanded by Lieutenant-Commander Hans Adam:

" February 22, 1917. 1.50.—Tank steamer, about 3,000 tons, with course 250 degrees, in sight. Dived. Torpedo fired from second tube; missed by 700 m.; had underestimated way. Steamer turns upon counter course. Went down. Rose to surface. Stopped her with gunfire. Steamer stops, blows off steam, crew leave the ship in two boats.

" 2.30 P.M.—Approached under water. No armament. Boats, about 8—10, are away from steamer.

" 2.49 P.M.—Rose to surface near boats Which still try to pull away from U-boat.

"2.49 P.M.—Steamer opens fire from four guns. Dive. Conning-tower hit five times: one shot through the bridge, one above the aerials, the third (4.7 cm.) goes through the conning-tower, explodes inside, nearly all apparatus destroyed. Second officer of the watch slightly wounded. Fourth shot smashed circulating water tubes; fifth shot hit a mine deflector. Abandoned conning-tower. Central hatch and speaking tube closed. As the conning-tower abandoned, the boat had to be worked from the central space below the conning-tower. The lifeboats throw depth charges to a depth of 20 m. Switch and main switchboard held in place by hand. Electric lamp over magnetic compass goes out. Boat is top-heavy and oscillates round the transverse axis [because the conning-tower was filled with water]. A number of connections between the conning-tower and hull do not remain watertight. Owing to short circuit the following fail in quick succession: gyro-compass, lamp-circuit [for lighting], main rudder, means of communication, forward horizontal rudder jams. In spite of being 14 degrees down by the stern and engines going full speed, the boat sinks by the bows to 40 m.; compressed air. To get rid of the water, rapid expulsion of air to 20 m. to - degrees to load aft. Tank No. 1 gets no compressed air. All hands in the bows to avoid breaking surface. Torpedo coxswain and No. 1 (petty officer) even counter-flood forward. Boat falls 8 degrees by the bow, and sinks to 35 m. depth. Compressed air on forward tanks.

" Meanwhile the spray (from leaks in the conning-tower) is kept off the electric apparatus by sail-cloth, waterproofs, flags, etc. The watertight auxiliary switchboard is the saving of the boat. Boat sinks down by the stern again and threatens to break surface. Steering under water no longer possible.

" 3.10 P.M. - Compressed air on all tanks. Starboard electric engine breaks down. To the guns, clear oil motors, full speed ahead! "

The commander decided, as the boat could not remain under water, to rise to the surface and chance fighting the steamer.


"The steamer is 35 hm. off and opens fire at once. Shots all round the boat. One 7.5 and one 4.7 cm. shell hit the upper deck forward of the boat's 88 cm. gun. Second officer of the watch receives other slight wounds. Replied to fire, unfortunately without telescopic sight as the conning-tower is still full of water. Distance quickly increases to 50 hm. Then the steamer follows slowly. To starboard a destroyer which opens fire at 80 hm.; shots fall short. Put on cork jackets. The intention is to continue gunfire till the boat can be sunk in the neighbourhood of a sailing vessel 8 sea miles away, to save the crew from a Baralong fate.

"3.17 P.M.—The destroyer is a ' Foxglove,' but cannot steam faster than the boat. At about 75 hm. replied to fire. The ' Foxglove ' soon begins to try and avoid shots; is hit twice, and increases the distance. Her guns only carry about 75 hm.

"3.20 P.M.—Conning-tower can be made watertight; boat cleared; ammunition for gun cleared; except conning-tower, all damage can gradually be repaired. Course 165 degrees. The 'Foxglove ' follows in our wake. Steamer lost to view. At a pinch the boat can dive, but leaves a heavy oil track behind her. If no destroyer comes before night, the boat can be saved.

"6.50 P.M.—The ' Foxglove ' has approached to 70 hm. and opens fire again. Return fire: hit. Enemy sheers off and falls back to over 100 hm.

" 8 P.M.—Twilight. Pursuit out of sight. On account of oil track zig-zag course. Run into another oil track, turned to port and gradually on course of 240 degrees.''

The boat then began her return journey and reached home without further incident."

I myself had occasion to inspect "U84,' after her return from this expedition. I realised that it was little short of a miracle that, in spite of such heavy damage, she reached home. It was chiefly due to the assurance with which the commander handled his boat, the perfect co-operation of the whole crew in these trying circumstances, and the excellent practice made by the gunners, in connection with which it must be remembered that the height of the platform of a U-boat, on which the gun is mounted, is only 2 m. above the water-level, and that aiming is thereby rendered far more difficult. Lieutenant-Commander Rohr is, unfortunately, one of the many who have not returned from their voyages.

..."The lifeboats throw depth charges to a depth of 20 m."...damned suicide job if you ask me...

...more war diary extracts here .

[jason210]

In WWI, we'd be playing without many of the technologies that WWII subs had, and there is a danger that this might seem dull.

A WWI sub simulation could be just great, but only if it introduced some revolutionary new things, such as full, 1st person camera movement around the ship. This is a must for any new subsim.

But that would not be enough. In order to be immersive it would need to be alive, with top notch graphics, detailed ships, detailed aircraft and detailed crews who walk around and do stuff.

And yet - I still don't think it would be enough. It would need something else. Perhaps more control of the U-boat would helpt....valves, engines, hydroplanes. And then a really good dynamic campaign.

[Deamon]

Originally Posted by Seeteufel

Extract from the log of "U 82," commanded by Lieutenant-Commander Hans Adam:

That was a hell of a fight, doh

The crew and commander must had some nerves.

Deamon

[Deamon]

Originally Posted by Razman23

Have you ever heard of the 'Q Ships'?

They were also made to 'morph' to differnt profiles by moving, adding, modifing smokestacks, cargo boxes, and pilot houses. They even went as far as to repaint the whole ship differnt schemes to confuse the sub commander to think he is looking at a differnt ship.

That is curtainly new to me. What are your sources ?

Quit a few German subs got a nasty surprise when the panels on the side of a victum opened and 8 pounder guns started to fire on them. Several subs were sunk by this tactic.

Yeah and some Q-Ships must have been surprized too as they surprized a german u-boat but this blew them up finaly.

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

Deamon, I applaud your efforts, and look forward to seeing your work.

Thank you. I'm gald you like it.

I am wondering how you plan to implement the practices and standards of international maritime law.

Just as they were.

For almost the entire first year of the war, Uboats were required to stop transiting merchants and inspect their papers to determine if they were indeed ferrying for the enemy, at which time their seacocks would be opened and the crew set in lifeboats. This seems difficult to implement.

Why do you think it's difficult ?

Originally Posted by oRGy

Not really, unless you plan to have the player hop aboard the merchant.

I plan to hop the player not only aboard of merchants But i don't disclose more then this.

You'd just get close enough, target the ship, order the no/wo to board and search the ship, wait a few minutes, ship sink.

In my experience its best to handle things abstractly.

Hmm, i think i'm going to handle them not abstractly. Don't think it will be a SHIII just in WWI. It's a very different kinde of sim we working on here. It's supposed to go beyoned the pure tactical simulation more towards a first person u-boat experiance. If you know what i mean. If it will be just the half of what i project then you will remember eatch of your patrols mutch longer then thous from SHIII. Eatch patrol will be mutch more ditailed with mutch more things to do.

Originally Posted by Syxx_Killer

Or after you send the no/wo aboard, a screen could pop up showing the ship's papers. The player could then determine if the ship is to be sunk.

Something along this lines could be done if i fail to implement what i plan.

What means no/wo ?

Originally Posted by magick

This forum awakes my interest in WW1 submarines, searched the web and found some interresting facts, if there is a WW1 submarine sim then let me know , greetings

Oh you are from Flandes ! Where the german u-baot base in WWI were.

I guess you have seen my site ?

Check also out the diarys Seeteufel has compiled.

Originally Posted by the_rydster

Yeah I WW1 mod would be a great idea. The subs would be much more primative and the TDC would have to be replaced with slide rules and tables.

Hmm, but we were not talking here about a mod.

This is an interesting link about 'The first battle of the atlantic' -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_B...f_the_Atlantic

Thanks

There was some serious stuff going on for sure with several notoroius incidents, the sinking of the Lusitania, the sinking of Llandovery Castle, the Baralong incident etc etc.

It's a very exciting era. And it's unexplored ! A whole u-boat action heavy war unexplored!!!

It's very exciting for me to work through all of this stuff and then compile articles out of it.

Originally Posted by jason210

In WWI, we'd be playing without many of the technologies that WWII subs had, and there is a danger that this might seem dull.

I can't agree on that. Is there a danger a WWII subsim could be dull because it misses many of the technology of a modern submarine ?

I think you can't compare apples with oranges. I feel a little bit that you tend to imagine a WWI subsim as a downgraded WWII sim.

The only missing technologies i can think of are the TDC(Torpedo director instead) no radar, no trainable hydrophone that was able to exclude all noises except that once that were in the azimuth (There were only panorama hydrophones available and the whole boat had to be turned if you wanted to have a precise bearing of the target. But at the end of the war the so called binaural hydrophone installation were available that made it possible to take bearings without turning the boat), the radio direction finder wasn't available and the radio equipment wasn't so powerfull it also was not possible to receive messages at PD via ELF. Besides that i don't see much differences in equipment. Well the torpedos had no magnetical fuzes and the torpedos couldn't perform search patterns like that once in WWII(besides angle shots) and had also no acoustical guidence.

But on the other hand the WWI u-boats feature stuff WWII u-boats can't: there is a much bigger variaty of u-boat types, up to four deckguns with range finders, calibre up to 155mm and i finde them more beauty to be honestly. So many different appearances makes the u-boat heart happy.

A WWI sub simulation could be just great, but only if it introduced some revolutionary new things, such as full, 1st person camera movement around the ship. This is a must for any new subsim.

Well that's what i'm going to do.

But that would not be enough. In order to be immersive it would need to be alive, with top notch graphics, detailed ships, detailed aircraft and detailed crews who walk around and do stuff.

Well i would agree on that, at least the graphics should be up to date. Do you think my models will look top notch ?

I can tell you U 1 will gonna be veeery immersive

And yet - I still don't think it would be enough. It would need something else. Perhaps more control of the U-boat would helpt....valves, engines, hydroplanes. And then a really good dynamic campaign.

I'm aware of that. But still i'm not talking here about a SHIII in WWI. I'm going to broaden the scope of the sim and introduce areas never been dealt before in a subsim. In todays subsims the submarine is to the bigest part merely eyecandy. Not so in IUF the whole sub will work and everything will have its purpuose, i even toy with the idea to allow the player to disassamble the engines I project the player to deal alot more with just the sub alone not to mention the navigational, nautical, operational and other challanges. Like i sayed my project gears more towards the u-boat experiance then a pure tactical sim. When it comes down to immersion i have set to my self highest goals. When i play my own sim then i want to be so immersed that i forget everything around me and after the play needing some time to arrive back in the reality. I experianced this type of immersion only with operation flashpoint in the recent years.

Deamon

[Deamon]

@jason210:

I just investigated some of your older posts and saw what type of taste you have. You seem strongly to desire a PFS style freedome of movement in and on the sub and anywhere else. You also seem to like flashpoint very much. Well i'm pleased to see that we have very common desires.

Than you will like my sim much.

BTW: Do you ever check your PM's ?

Deamon

[Rotor]

Yes - Im in too!

[Takeda Shingen]

I simply thought it might be more difficult to have more complex interaction between you and your target, as opposted to 'find and sink'. If it is not more difficult, or even more simplistic, then this is fine as well. I apologize for my inquiry, as it was not my intention to step on anyone's manhood.

Best of luck with your project. I look forward to reading about a completed project at some point in the future.