[WIP] SH5 True Dynamic Campaign

[R-T-B]

Actually, I was getting to that, but I didn't want to bring it up right now.

This project is going to be commercial. Sorry guys, but there's no way I could motivate myself to finish and keep up to date otherwise. :/ I really want to support this for the long term and a small fee is the only way I can do that. Afterall, I also have a job and am a fulltime student. :/

It's going to be a nominal fee though, I'm thinking about $5, and there will be a free version that doesn't interact with Silent Hunter for release as a demo... So you'll know what your getting. You'll also get a lifetime of support. Payments will be made through paypal, and exceptions can be made for those who desperately want a copy but can't send me money via paypal for whatever reason (just don't abuse this).

I know, you're probably all skeptical right now, but when I release the first demo program and see my work I think you'll all agree it's worth it. Plus, it's DRM free, and the fee will give you a source code license for personal use! Try getting ubisoft to do that.

Right now, I have about 1000 lines of code from just last night. And that's just the incomplete demo! So I hope you can understand wanting to be reimbursed for my work somewhat.

heh ill donate alot more than $5 if this is going to be as awesome as i think it is... can't wait

any possibility, that different countries might deploy / build different amounts of ships depending on how country allegiances play out? how are you going to determine whether countries surrender in battle ect? any possibility the out come of a conflict could be somewhat dynamic such as using you military and economic scores say the player may be able to affect the values to a very small extent such as removing military points for troop transports or warships suck and removing economic points for sinking merchants supply, and say how fast or slow a country surrenders to another may be predicated in the imbalance of the point scores against each other, so say UK is fighting German and i mange to sink 100 merchant points in my career affecting 100 points of economic score there by limiting military production a certain number of points which might prolong the war a month .. something like that would be cool, of course actually changing the course of the war would be likely a 1 in a 100 chance, and only possible if the two countries fighting were really evenly matched

[R-T-B]

Originally Posted by Hell_Diver

heh ill donate alot more than $5 if this is going to be as awesome as i think it is... can't wait

any possibility, that differnt countreis might deploy / build differnt amounts of ships depending on how country allegiances play out? how are you going to determine whether countries surrender in battle ect? this sounds like a monumental task

It is quite the task, that's for sure. The first release won't have everything you list, but it will do a rudimentary simulation of countries surendering/losing, turf changes, etc. It won't however change shipping lanes until the "2.0" release I imagine, which I plan to feature dynamic shipping lanes, more nations and more boats (contributions welcome, Finland is a major one I need to add, not in game and Russia goes to war with them), and many many more things.

There's no limit to how much you can add, because I'm writing it to be very modular. Nearly everything is wrapped in a callable subroutine or function so it's very modular, almost scriptable (heck, it could be with some work, but that's a low priority).

The first war log will simply simulate wars using a very rudimentary formula of "my military slowly grinds yours down based on numbers," sort of like battling spreadsheets. It works, but it's not ideal. The final 1.0 release will feature something much better, though I'm not saying much yet.

As far as changing the war goes, random events such as "economic booms" and "economic depressions" exist, allowing some things to change simply due to randomization. It should provide a different, but historical feeling experience each time if I can tune it right.

Of course, if you don't like how it's acting, it reads it's data from excel spreadsheets, and you have the source code, so there's nothing to stop you from changing it!

[The Fishlord]

Wow...just skimmed the first pages of this thread but it looks like you're on to something. Obviously the chances of it happening in real life were near null, but...just what if I blew up Stalin on the way to Yalta? I wonder if you'll be able to code specific, one time ships like that having such a high value. Looks interesting, keep up the good work! Can't wait for a release

[R-T-B]

It WOULD be interesting if my engine could attribute the "Revolution" event I have coded to trigger when certain ships, ones with particularly heavy escort preferably... Ones a leader might be on, sink...

Who knows? Probably won't make it into first release but I'll tell you know it is possible.

[iambecomelife]

Originally Posted by R-T-B

It is quite the task, that's for sure. The first release won't have everything you list, but it will do a rudimentary simulation of countries surendering/losing, turf changes, etc. It won't however change shipping lanes until the "2.0" release I imagine, which I plan to feature dynamic shipping lanes, more nations and more boats (contributions welcome, Finland is a major one I need to add, not in game and Russia goes to war with them), and many many more things.

There's no limit to how much you can add, because I'm writing it to be very modular. Nearly everything is wrapped in a callable subroutine or function so it's very modular, almost scriptable (heck, it could be with some work, but that's a low priority).

The first war log will simply simulate wars using a very rudimentary formula of "my military slowly grinds yours down based on numbers," sort of like battling spreadsheets. It works, but it's not ideal. The final 1.0 release will feature something much better, though I'm not saying much yet.

As far as changing the war goes, random events such as "economic booms" and "economic depressions" exist, allowing some things to change simply due to randomization. It should provide a different, but historical feeling experience each time if I can tune it right.

Of course, if you don't like how it's acting, it reads it's data from excel spreadsheets, and you have the source code, so there's nothing to stop you from changing it!

There probably won't be a need to build very many ships. There are dozens of unique warship models for minor nations that were built for SH3 and SH4 - as soon as we figure out how to convert the models for SH5 there won't be very many ship classes needed. Nearly all of the important Japanese ships, for example, can be ported over from SH4.

It would be interesting if you could produce a "ripple effect" from the players' individual sinkings, as some people have already alluded to. If commodity stocks are modeled, it could create some interesting situations. Perhaps there could be several primary categories of goods:

POL (Petroleum/Oil/Lubricants)
Carried in: TANKERS
Affects: MILITARY OPS
CIVILIAN HAPPINESS (Gasoline, Heating Oil, &c.)

AMMUNITION
Carried in: FREIGHTERS
Affects: MILITARY OPS

FOOD
Carried in: FREIGHTERS, REEFER SHIPS
Affects: CIVILIAN HAPPINESS

MINERAL ORES
Carried in: BULK CARRIERS
Affects: INDUSTRIAL OUTPUT

TROOPS
Carried in: TROOP CARRIERS
Affects: MILITARY OPS

MILITARY STORES
Carried in: FREIGHTERS
Affects: MILITARY OPS

CONSUMER GOODS
Carried in: FREIGHTERS
Affects: CIVILIAN HAPPINESS

For instance, Player X goes out on patrol and sinks four British freighters and a British tanker in October 1939. Assuming all the ships were loaded. Britain loses, maybe, 2 points worth of consumer goods, one point of military stores, and one point of food, plus one point of petroleum products. The 20-30 U-Boats on patrol in 1939 will therefore sink an average of 5 ships per patrol, give or take a few. Over all, British resolve is shaken but not destroyed - after all, it's early in the war, and there are still a lot of merchants left.

A small number of U-Boats will be lost, based on historical averages for that time period. If the player's U-Boat is lost, then assume a higher U-Boat loss rate.

Democracies should be more sensitive to factors like civilian unhappiness, because they lack dictatorship's brutal efficiency. Also, countries like Britain and the USA should be accustomed to having more consumer goods than, say, Russia or Japan. If civilian unhappiness declines enough, then countries should suffer from civil wars, unrest, or even sue for peace. If petroleum/ammo stocks decline, it would be great if the campaign layers spawned fewer aircraft and naval sorties (shortages of ammo, aviation fuel, & bunker fuel).

Countries with smaller merchant fleets should suffer greater point penalties per merchant ship sunk. This can be mitigated somewhat if they have an ally with a large merchant fleet.

Sinking certain "prestige units" like Battleships should cause a large morale penalty/increase in unhappiness. The military would try to censor these losses, but of course word got around.

I don't know how much of this is possible - I'm just throwing out ideas.

[R-T-B]

Originally Posted by iambecomelife

There probably won't be a need to build very many ships. There are dozens of unique warship models for minor nations that were built for SH3 and SH4 - as soon as we figure out how to convert the models for SH5 there won't be very many ship classes needed. Nearly all of the important Japanese ships, for example, can be ported over from SH4.

It would be interesting if you could produce a "ripple effect" from the players' individual sinkings, as some people have already alluded to. If commodity stocks are modeled, it could create some interesting situations. Perhaps there could be several primary categories of goods:

POL (Petroleum/Oil/Lubricants)
Carried in: TANKERS
Affects: MILITARY OPS
CIVILIAN HAPPINESS (Gasoline, Heating Oil, &c.)

AMMUNITION
Carried in: FREIGHTERS
Affects: MILITARY OPS

FOOD
Carried in: FREIGHTERS, REEFER SHIPS
Affects: CIVILIAN HAPPINESS

MINERAL ORES
Carried in: BULK CARRIERS
Affects: INDUSTRIAL OUTPUT

TROOPS
Carried in: TROOP CARRIERS
Affects: MILITARY OPS

MILITARY STORES
Carried in: FREIGHTERS
Affects: MILITARY OPS

CONSUMER GOODS
Carried in: FREIGHTERS
Affects: CIVILIAN HAPPINESS

For instance, Player X goes out on patrol and sinks four British freighters and a British tanker in October 1939. Assuming all the ships were loaded. Britain loses, maybe, 2 points worth of consumer goods, one point of military stores, and one point of food, plus one point of petroleum products. The 20-30 U-Boats on patrol in 1939 will therefore sink an average of 5 ships per patrol, give or take a few. Over all, British resolve is shaken but not destroyed - after all, it's early in the war, and there are still a lot of merchants left.

A small number of U-Boats will be lost, based on historical averages for that time period. If the player's U-Boat is lost, then assume a higher U-Boat loss rate.

Democracies should be more sensitive to factors like civilian unhappiness, because they lack dictatorship's brutal efficiency. Also, countries like Britain and the USA should be accustomed to having more consumer goods than, say, Russia or Japan. If civilian unhappiness declines enough, then countries should suffer from civil wars, unrest, or even sue for peace. If petroleum/ammo stocks decline, it would be great if the campaign layers spawned fewer aircraft and naval sorties (shortages of ammo, aviation fuel, & bunker fuel).

Countries with smaller merchant fleets should suffer greater point penalties per merchant ship sunk. This can be mitigated somewhat if they have an ally with a large merchant fleet.

Sinking certain "prestige units" like Battleships should cause a large morale penalty/increase in unhappiness. The military would try to censor these losses, but of course word got around.

I don't know how much of this is possible - I'm just throwing out ideas.

All of it is possible, but to implement every bit of that would take many many months, if not years. Right now, things are represented as a simple "industrial value" that can be impacted from sinkings, but because of my modular code nothing is stopping me from changing that. It just probably won't happen for the first release.

Once I have my first release out, I'll start a poll on "most wanted features" and we'll go from there.

BTW guys, I'll be needing some beta testers. When the time comes I'll let you know. Everyone however will get a copy of the non-gameplay-functional demo log exporter, which should provide some ahistorical fun.

The beta testers will get the full thing, but they have to deal with the bugs, so it probably won't be so much fun at first.

[Ziggy]

I don't know if I should point this out, if it is just to make things easier to do I understand. Having Eastern Europe allied doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Especially Poland and Russia, considering their long history of war and the Russo-Polish War in 1919-21, and again in 1939 a few weeks after the German Invasion. Poland was allied to France and England at this point before the war. Sorry ahead of time if I missed something and just made an ass of myself I am very tired :-p.

Ok I finished my history nit picking. I will be quiet now.

[R-T-B]

Alliances are a simple drag and drop to change, so should I move Russia into it's own UNALLIGNED bubble and make those other nations members of their own EASALLIES?

That's what I'm thinking of doing now.

[R-T-B]

Russia is now unaligned. My engine is starting to spit out it's first output figures now. According to it, in the first month America and Germany will lose 6 relation points (on a scale of 100 to -100). Reasons? Military Buildup and Ideological differences. Sounds logical thus far.

I can't get much more right now out of it, but by morning we should have a text log.

[Nightcloak]

im impressed, this idea has a lot of potential!
it sort of reminds me a bit of Hearts of Iron III
unity, industrial capacity and all that
if you need betatesters i would be most happy to help (ahistorical is fun anyways :P)

btw i would recommend HoI3 for some inspiration if you feel like it, bit buggy but still fun just like SH5

keep up the brainstorming!

[R-T-B]

Originally Posted by Nightcloak

im impressed, this idea has a lot of potential!
it sort of reminds me a bit of Hearts of Iron III
unity, industrial capacity and all that
if you need betatesters i would be most happy to help (ahistorical is fun anyways :P)

btw i would recommend HoI3 for some inspiration if you feel like it, bit buggy but still fun just like SH5

keep up the brainstorming!

I never got into HoI because I felt like it was too scripted, never tried 3 though maybe I should give it a shot.

My original idea was to link to HoI or Making History and have it do the dirty work for conflict, but this proved impossible to manage. I have no idea how to get those games to export any kind of meaningful, usable log files.

[Nightcloak]

yeah 1 and 2 was pretty traintracked, most people actually complain that 3 runs ahistorical a lot so might be better for you

[R-T-B]

I like a balance between ahistorical and believable. That's actually why I'm not releasing my first log right now, it's very very ahistorical.

I'm working on making it a little more real before posting anything it spits out.

hey ive got another idea.. i dont know if it would be possible or not.. but i always hate that i have to leave my uboat docked for a month or tow when RTB, and i miss portions of the war.. would it be possible to give the player command of two separate uboats.. so that while one is refitting in port, you can take the second one out.. that way you wont miss much of the war, and when you RTB your other boat will be refitted and ready to sail out again.. i think this idea is awesome, maybe needs its own mod though