US vs. German subs - which was better?

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Kongo Otto

I´ve heared that they build some very good U-Boots in Zimbabwe either.

They're all skinned in the black panther scheme.

[Puster Bill]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

They're all skinned in the black panther scheme.

Could be worse.

Could be skinned in the pink panther scheme:

[antikristuseke]

Mock the pink panther scheme all you like fellas, but it really is bloody effective at night.

[Puster Bill]

Originally Posted by antikristuseke

Mock the pink panther scheme all you like fellas, but it really is bloody effective at night.

What bars do you hang out at?

[ReallyDedPoet]

Let's get back on track lads as per the OP in the thread For the most part there has been some nice discussion here.


RDP

[Letum]

Anyone mind if I Necro this thread?
It is the latest on the topic, right?

[HundertzehnGustav]

huuuh? say what?

[Letum]

I was wondering how each navy would have fared with each others
equipment. I suspect neither navy would want the others boats much,
but if they had no choice; how might it have gone?

Also; can anyone shed any light on crew experience? Did the Americans
or Germans have better training and experience?

[Torplexed]

Given the greater distances in the Pacific you had better include the Milchkuhs. I certainly wouldn't have wanted a Type VII if my base was Pearl. By the time you reached Japan it would be time to turn around due to lack of fuel. No air conditioning would hurt in the tropics too.

The Germans would have enjoyed their roomy Gatos until the point that the Allies starting homing in on their SJ radar. Then adios.

[Letum]

Originally Posted by Torplexed

Given the greater distances in the Pacific you had better include the Milchkuhs. I certainly wouldn't have wanted a Type VII if my base was Pearl. By the time you reached Japan it would be time to turn around due to lack of fuel. No air conditioning would hurt in the tropics too.

Given that I think I may be right in saying that more IX boats where
built than fleet boats; the Americans could scuttle all of the VII's and still
have a bigger fleet after they swapped with the Germans if they didn't
fancy supply boats.
The IX boats did fine in the tropics with out air conditioning and ice
cream machines too.

Did the Germans ever figure out how good the Allies got at tracking
active radar? Would they have turned it off?

Would the American Torps been much of a problem in the Atlantic campeign?

[Sailor Steve]

Well, since the US fleet boats were similar to the Type IX, but with more engines and torpedoes, I'd say that they might have fared equally in each others' wars, if they took care; and I'm sure they would have. Heaven help the 'wonderful' Type VII in the Pacific though. Not knocking the boat itself, just its legs.

As for crew training and experience, I suppose it would have been just like the air war: Germany started out with the best trained men, especially the u-bootmen, as their trainers were the only ones who had ever fought a real submarine war. By the end, though, the Allies (especially the Americans) had the luxury of factories and shipyards that were never bombed, training bases thousands of miles from the front, and a training system that brought the experience combat veterans home to teach the new kids how it was done; while Germany had factories and shipyards that were bombed 'round the clock and their best and brightest, as Adolph Galland put it "fought until they were killed".

So it all depends on when.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Letum

Would the American Torps been much of a problem in the Atlantic campeign?

The Germans went through exactly the same torpedo problems, and yes they caused many headaches.

[Letum]

I'm sure use could have been made of the VII boats.
A supply ship extends the range up to 3 times (a refuel on the way there
and one on the way back).

How easy would it be to refuel a sub in the pacific?
Is it easy to hide a cargo ship there free from attack?

[Torplexed]

Originally Posted by Letum

I'm sure use could have been made of the VII boats.
A supply ship extends the range up to 3 times (a refuel on the way there
and one on the way back).

How easy would it be to refuel a sub in the pacific?
Is it easy to hide a cargo ship there free from attack?

I suppose you could base the Type VIIs out of Australia as was done with many of the S-Boats. They'd still have the range to strike the Solomons or the Dutch East Indies. The US tried to keep tenders in the South Pacific well out of range of possible land-based Japanese air attack. That's why they ended up in Fremantle and Brisbane.

[Hitman]

Also; can anyone shed any light on crew experience? Did the Americans
or Germans have better training and experience?

German sub crews were very experienced and able at the start of the war due to the clandestine "elite" training of pre-war years. Because they could only train secretely a few, the level was quite good. But it soon started to drop sharply in 1941, when most veterans were retired from front duty or dilluted into crews of newbies. US crews were well trained from the start, but in the wrong tactics . Though they improved fast thanks to Morton, O'Kane and similars leading the way, adapted and were pretty much elite at the end of the war. It is worth mentioning that many german recruits were pushed directly into an UBoat without any previous knowledge of what a ship was. And in their first cruise, they were already bombed by enemy aircraft just after departing. Many US crews trained well in the US before departing on a newly comissioned submarine, and had long trips to Pearl and then to the patrol area to exercise a lot during the voyage.

Given that I think I may be right in saying that more IX boats where
built than fleet boats; the Americans could scuttle all of the VII's and still
have a bigger fleet after they swapped with the Germans if they didn't
fancy supply boats.
The IX boats did fine in the tropics with out air conditioning and ice
cream machines too.

I'm not sure about that, would need to check the figures Theye didn't work so well in the tropics, though. German uboats were designed with the north atlantic in mind. The fact that they could reach equatorial latitudes does not mean they were conceived for that. In fact, the crews had a bad time down there.

Did the Germans ever figure out how good the Allies got at tracking
active radar? Would they have turned it off?

They suspected it, and by late war they turned the radar off whenever possible.

Would the American Torps been much of a problem in the Atlantic campeign?

Of course. The problem was not related to where they were employed, but rather a design defect.

In general, the IX would have done a reasonable job in the Pacific, but the fleet subs did much better. They went even farther away, they had more torps and better electronics (Radar) for finding the enemy.

The fleet boats would have been crushed in the North Atlantic very much as the IXs were, because the overwhelming amount of air forces, electronics and escorts employed would have anyway annihilated any WW2 era sub.