An open letter to my fellow Subsimmers...

CaptainHaplo · 01-21-10, 07:23 AM

Friends,

I have seen alot of negativity on here about SH5. I also admit to being disappointed at some of the design decisions that have been made. However, I got to thinking about this, and realized a few things. What makes the games we all enjoy playing so great? Most of the time, its because those games took a tried and true formula - and innovated it into something even better.

Look at the original Command and Conquer game. Look at what that franchise has grown into with its myriad changes and innovations over the years.

The Warhammer 40k franchise improved dramatically when they incorporated map strategy instead of a locked storyline.

The Total War series innovated from Shogun to Empire, and the improvements are too many to list.

Yes - I know innovation and new styles of gameplay don't always work. But none of us know whether SH5 will be an innovation that spurs the genre (as some innovative games have done), or whether it will flop. The expectation that just because its not SH3 with prettier graphics, bug fixes and a couple of new features means its bad is not only premature, that line of thinking would doom our subsims to remain a shrinking niche market.

Let them innovate, lets see what we get, and then judge it.

CaptainHaplo · 01-21-10, 07:23 AM

Ok - in addition to the innovation we know will be coming - and yes - alot of what the community has asked for looks to be making it in (such as wolfpacks) - there are some very good reasons for narrowing the scope of the game. The largest complaint upon release of both SH3 and SH4 was bugs. There were numerous ones, from gamekillers to historical inaccuracies. The more you narrow a game's scope, the more you can pay attention to the details that occur within the scope of the game. Is it going to be error free? No. The myriad of hardward alone means someone somewhere is likely to have a problem. But can we expect the gamekillers to be lest prevalent? One would think (and hope) so.

When we remember who is putting this game together - the reality is that we have every indication that there will be a commitment to making it a true SIM, with a level of historical accuracy. But you also can't expect nothing BUT historical accuracy, because that would be dull. Thus, innovations like a limited strategic AI (aka the "dynamic" campaign) will give meaning to your in game actions. Would you prefer a static only campaign where if you hit targets in an area, the enemy doesn't respond? That's not an accurate representation of reality, now is it?

Some things we will like. Others we may despise. But until we get the game in hand - or at least have the opportunity to see what people who have played it can say, the negativity is simply a reaction to the game not being SH3 on steriods.

How many people here played the first SH? Or SH2? I remember SH2 vividly. With the way it mostly sounds, SH3 should just have been SH2 with prettier graphics. There would have been no free form world. Is that what we want? Not me. I want to see what new things they can add - independant engine control, wolfpacks, a more immersive feel of BEING there. Let them try with our support. If its buggy, then we have seen that Ubi with SH tends to support it so that the major bugs are gone. If it has inaccuracies, its being made as mod friendly as they can reasonably do, meaning we will be able to resolve most of that. Stop expecting perfection for 50 bucks, but expect a true and honest effort to open our world of subsims up to others, while keeping it founded on the things that have made the SH franchise successful.

Yes, I know, some won't be happy until they can boot the game and feel the cold salt water splash on their face, or get hit with the "smell of the sea" (though thats really the smell of land). If you really hate SH5 when its released, you still have SH3 with GWX or whatever other mod you want. But realize this is being built by a guy who loves this stuff as much as most of us do, so its doubtful he is going to let us down.

UnSalted · 01-21-10, 08:46 AM

All things considered, I've decided to wait until SH5 has been around for a few weeks so I can get some indications that they have made it worth the purchase price and it actuially WORKS this time.

I guess I'm still irritated that the last copy of SH4 I bought to install on a new PC had a ridiculously bad installation routine that screwed up my Registry and tech suport was nowhere to be found after the charges went thru on my credit card.

As to longevity, sequels are nice but bad sequels can ruin even the finest series of anything, from movies to games to wives.

ReallyDedPoet · 01-21-10, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

I have seen alot of negativity on here about SH5.

As there was with SH3 & 4, it seems to be a pattern ....
I'll wait until after the game is released for a while ( and get a chance to play it, etc. )
before I get to worked up one way or the other

01-21-10, 09:13 AM

I'm waiting for the letter to be finsihed, closed and posted before I comment in this thread....DOH!

ReallyDedPoet · 01-21-10, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uber Gruber

I'm waiting for the letter to be finsihed, closed and posted before I comment in this thread....DOH!

You just did smart-guy

, thought you were going to wait.

BulSoldier · 01-21-10, 10:29 AM

Funny you give those three examples because in all of these series i prefered the old one. For instance after medieval total war (the one after shogun) everything began getting worse.For me all the atmoshpere of has gone.
Also i really hate warhammer 40k dawn of war 2.
The same aplies to C&C. After westwood closed doors it hasnt been anywhere as good.
I just hope sh5 wont follow such a path.

01-21-10, 01:05 PM

Quote:

You just did smart-guy

, thought you were going to wait.

Curses to you RDP....caught me again with me pants down

Jimbuna · 01-21-10, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Let them innovate, lets see what we get, and then judge it.

Can't disagree with those sentiments

flakmonkey · 01-21-10, 04:07 PM

I think we are lucky ubi chooses to continue to produce a game which lets face it is a massively niche genre, im sure their accountants would rather they just pumped out another assassins creed/splinter cell sequel etc to bring in the guaranteed cash, rather than taking a risk with a subsim, even if they are tying to give it more mass market appeal it`ll never be a game for the console kiddies.

CaptainHaplo · 01-21-10, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BulSoldier

Funny you give those three examples because in all of these series i prefered the old one. For instance after medieval total war (the one after shogun) everything began getting worse.For me all the atmoshpere of has gone.
Also i really hate warhammer 40k dawn of war 2.
The same aplies to C&C. After westwood closed doors it hasnt been anywhere as good.
I just hope sh5 wont follow such a path.

BulSoldier - I can't agree with you on C&C or Total War. It is fair to note that the Medieval ones - both the first and MTW2 - were not nearly as good as Shogun, or Rome. Empire I would put in the middle. Rome really recaptured the majesty of Shogun. Just proof that innovation can be good or bad.

As for Warhammer 40k - I agree that DoW2 was a step in the wrong direction. However, would you say that Dark Crusade and Soulstorm were better or worse than Dow and Winter Assault? For me, DC and SoulS were by far huge improvements.

That is why I say its ok to be skeptical - but lets not slam every decision when we don't know how it will turn out. That was my point.

cappy70 · 01-21-10, 11:44 PM

Agree with you CaptHaplo,,a point I also have tried to get through.

I mean that all ideas thrown toward the game is just fine, but we must also remember that to some extent that we are talking about artistic work here and the same when I write music, you can't get it all to work for everybody.
They have for sure have a basic "map" for the game (SH5) that they try to get through, at the same time as they are listening and looking at Forums like this with all the "brainstorming" going on in here to also implement as much as they can within that map they have.

My biggest point of critisism is that if everything was followed from many viewpoints in advance about the game , we would just have a "new" SH3 with "new clothes" (graphics),,and that IMHO would be kinda boring.
I want to be surprised in a good way.

We'll see if I'm right or wrong, the game must be allowed to be released first.

01-21-10, 07:23 AM	#1
CaptainHaplo Silent Hunter Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 4,404 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 0	An open letter to my fellow Subsimmers... Friends, I have seen alot of negativity on here about SH5. I also admit to being disappointed at some of the design decisions that have been made. However, I got to thinking about this, and realized a few things. What makes the games we all enjoy playing so great? Most of the time, its because those games took a tried and true formula - and innovated it into something even better. Look at the original Command and Conquer game. Look at what that franchise has grown into with its myriad changes and innovations over the years. The Warhammer 40k franchise improved dramatically when they incorporated map strategy instead of a locked storyline. The Total War series innovated from Shogun to Empire, and the improvements are too many to list. Yes - I know innovation and new styles of gameplay don't always work. But none of us know whether SH5 will be an innovation that spurs the genre (as some innovative games have done), or whether it will flop. The expectation that just because its not SH3 with prettier graphics, bug fixes and a couple of new features means its bad is not only premature, that line of thinking would doom our subsims to remain a shrinking niche market. Let them innovate, lets see what we get, and then judge it. __________________ Good Hunting! Captain Haplo

01-21-10, 07:23 AM	#2
CaptainHaplo Silent Hunter Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 4,404 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 0	Ok - in addition to the innovation we know will be coming - and yes - alot of what the community has asked for looks to be making it in (such as wolfpacks) - there are some very good reasons for narrowing the scope of the game. The largest complaint upon release of both SH3 and SH4 was bugs. There were numerous ones, from gamekillers to historical inaccuracies. The more you narrow a game's scope, the more you can pay attention to the details that occur within the scope of the game. Is it going to be error free? No. The myriad of hardward alone means someone somewhere is likely to have a problem. But can we expect the gamekillers to be lest prevalent? One would think (and hope) so. When we remember who is putting this game together - the reality is that we have every indication that there will be a commitment to making it a true SIM, with a level of historical accuracy. But you also can't expect nothing BUT historical accuracy, because that would be dull. Thus, innovations like a limited strategic AI (aka the "dynamic" campaign) will give meaning to your in game actions. Would you prefer a static only campaign where if you hit targets in an area, the enemy doesn't respond? That's not an accurate representation of reality, now is it? Some things we will like. Others we may despise. But until we get the game in hand - or at least have the opportunity to see what people who have played it can say, the negativity is simply a reaction to the game not being SH3 on steriods. How many people here played the first SH? Or SH2? I remember SH2 vividly. With the way it mostly sounds, SH3 should just have been SH2 with prettier graphics. There would have been no free form world. Is that what we want? Not me. I want to see what new things they can add - independant engine control, wolfpacks, a more immersive feel of BEING there. Let them try with our support. If its buggy, then we have seen that Ubi with SH tends to support it so that the major bugs are gone. If it has inaccuracies, its being made as mod friendly as they can reasonably do, meaning we will be able to resolve most of that. Stop expecting perfection for 50 bucks, but expect a true and honest effort to open our world of subsims up to others, while keeping it founded on the things that have made the SH franchise successful. Yes, I know, some won't be happy until they can boot the game and feel the cold salt water splash on their face, or get hit with the "smell of the sea" (though thats really the smell of land). If you really hate SH5 when its released, you still have SH3 with GWX or whatever other mod you want. But realize this is being built by a guy who loves this stuff as much as most of us do, so its doubtful he is going to let us down. __________________ Good Hunting! Captain Haplo Last edited by CaptainHaplo; 01-21-10 at 07:04 PM.

01-21-10, 10:29 AM	#7
BulSoldier Samurai Navy Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Burgas/Bulgaria Posts: 550 Downloads: 40 Uploads: 0	Funny you give those three examples because in all of these series i prefered the old one. For instance after medieval total war (the one after shogun) everything began getting worse.For me all the atmoshpere of has gone. Also i really hate warhammer 40k dawn of war 2. The same aplies to C&C. After westwood closed doors it hasnt been anywhere as good. I just hope sh5 wont follow such a path. __________________ By the hour !

01-21-10, 04:07 PM	#10
flakmonkey Grey Wolf Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Staffordshire, Uk Posts: 944 Downloads: 78 Uploads: 0	I think we are lucky ubi chooses to continue to produce a game which lets face it is a massively niche genre, im sure their accountants would rather they just pumped out another assassins creed/splinter cell sequel etc to bring in the guaranteed cash, rather than taking a risk with a subsim, even if they are tying to give it more mass market appeal it`ll never be a game for the console kiddies. __________________

01-21-10, 11:44 PM	#12
cappy70 Ensign Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: USA/Florida/Sweden Posts: 234 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Hi Agree with you CaptHaplo,,a point I also have tried to get through. I mean that all ideas thrown toward the game is just fine, but we must also remember that to some extent that we are talking about artistic work here and the same when I write music, you can't get it all to work for everybody. They have for sure have a basic "map" for the game (SH5) that they try to get through, at the same time as they are listening and looking at Forums like this with all the "brainstorming" going on in here to also implement as much as they can within that map they have. My biggest point of critisism is that if everything was followed from many viewpoints in advance about the game , we would just have a "new" SH3 with "new clothes" (graphics),,and that IMHO would be kinda boring. I want to be surprised in a good way. We'll see if I'm right or wrong, the game must be allowed to be released first. __________________ Specs Windows 10 64 bit Pro Asus Z - 97A Intel I7-4790K 4 Ghz 16 Gig Trident Claw DDR 3 2 x 760 GTX 2048 mem in SLI. WD 1T Hd Ultra/WD Black 640 Corsair 850W PSU

01-21-10, 08:46 AM	#3
UnSalted Machinist's Mate Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 130 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	All things considered, I've decided to wait until SH5 has been around for a few weeks so I can get some indications that they have made it worth the purchase price and it actuially WORKS this time. I guess I'm still irritated that the last copy of SH4 I bought to install on a new PC had a ridiculously bad installation routine that screwed up my Registry and tech suport was nowhere to be found after the charges went thru on my credit card. As to longevity, sequels are nice but bad sequels can ruin even the finest series of anything, from movies to games to wives.

01-21-10, 09:13 AM	#5
Uber Gruber Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	I'm waiting for the letter to be finsihed, closed and posted before I comment in this thread....DOH!