Realistic sub tactics with aircraft

[rjmerit]

Ok, I'm patrolling off the coast of Japan and during the day I get alot of planes flying around. So far what I do is; pick up the contacts on radar, if it looks like they'll come within sight (often do) I'll go to PD for about 7-8 minutes then come back up and continue on. Of course this works well, I don't get shot at, but is it realistic? Was sub based air search radar that accurate and reliable? What would be the tactics of sub commanders back then when traveling that close to the coast of Japan?

[WitoldGritz]

what i would do, and do ingame, cruise surfaced only at night time with big precotions, day time submerged and cruise lowest speed.

how you pick plane contact on radar?

[rjmerit]

The air search radar works without you having to do anything. If you get surface radar and air radar you have to turn off the radar on the interface at the bottom of the screen; which is the surface radar and then the air search works automatically. The interface controls are just for the surface radar and only one works at a time so once your surface radar is "on" your air search is off.

[Pacific_Ace]

Originally Posted by rjmerit

Ok, I'm patrolling off the coast of Japan and during the day I get alot of planes flying around. So far what I do is; pick up the contacts on radar, if it looks like they'll come within sight (often do) I'll go to PD for about 7-8 minutes then come back up and continue on. Of course this works well, I don't get shot at, but is it realistic? Was sub based air search radar that accurate and reliable? What would be the tactics of sub commanders back then when traveling that close to the coast of Japan?

An aircraft catching his sub on the surface was a skippers worst nightmare. The early SD radar was not too good. It only had a range of 6 miles or so and didn't have the ability to give range and bearing. You only knew a plane was there and whether it was closing on you BUT that was better than depending only on your lookouts. Later in the war a radar called SV radar was installed and it had much better range and could give range and bearing information.

As to the tactics of your situation, yes it is realistic in certain situations. I don't think a skipper would play day time hide and seek with aircraft so close to Japan under normal circumstances unless he had a good reason, like he was doing an end around on a convoy or TF he contacted during the night or was on his way to an intercept point provided by MAGIC intelligence.

Originally Posted by rjmerit

and only one works at a time so once your surface radar is "on" your air search is off.

This is totally wrong. There is no way to turn air search on and off that I know of, but turning on your SJ does NOT turn off your SD and they both work fine together.

[rjmerit]

Pacific Ace, so for normal circumstances it would be more realistic to dive and cruise along at say one or two knots for the day and then come back up at night?

As for the in game radar, I'm using stock 1.4 and if I have SJ on, I will not get contacts from my SD. I wasn't talking about turning the SD off but turning off the SJ. If this works differently please let me know how, because as of right now if I'm running daylight on the surface I just flip on the SJ for a few minutes and then turn it back off because I won't get air contacts with the SJ turned on.

[Pacific_Ace]

Originally Posted by rjmerit

Pacific Ace, so for normal circumstances it would be more realistic to dive and cruise along at say one or two knots for the day and then come back up at night?

As for the in game radar, I'm using stock 1.4 and if I have SJ on, I will not get contacts from my SD. I wasn't talking about turning the SD off but turning off the SJ. If this works differently please let me know how, because as of right now if I'm running daylight on the surface I just flip on the SJ for a few minutes and then turn it back off because I won't get air contacts with the SJ turned on.

Well as I said before, your tactics would fit your current situation. From a game standpoint I usually submerge in the day time in high air traffic areas because it irritates me to constantly dive and surface. From a real life standpoint it is a matter of mitigating your risks, which are already astronomical to start with. Keep in mind that a crash dive in real life was no easy task and carried high risk in and of themselves. It also disrupts your subs routine and peoples sleep.
Other factors come in play as well. What is the weather like? Is the sea glassy smooth? Skippers hated this as waves serve to break up their boat wake and periscope feather. What time in the war is it? Later in the war Japanese ships and aircraft began to be equipped with radar.

As for your SD/SJ issue, Ive never heard of it. Are you fully patched? I personally have never played stock SH4 I use the RFB or FotRS supermods and I have both radars on all the time and no problems.

[Armistead]

You air radar is always on regardless, unless dived or broken. It doesn't cut off. You can control you surface radar off and on, but it has no effect on air radar. Haven't played stock in so long, but sure you can raise the air radar at scope depth with the t key.

Why early war tactics they ran submerged during the day, most skippers quit that. They actually trusted their crew watches more than radar, but with both, most skippers stayed on the surface during the day.

You also want to always run at about 9-10 knots, anything else you're wasting fuel.

Problem with stock, too many planes at an unrealistic level, so almost forces you to stay submerged. Mod's fix all those silly stock bugs.

If you haven't read the SHIV guide yet I would do so. I'll have to go find a link, but will post it later.

[Rockin Robbins]

It would be absolutely unrealistic to follow the ostrich strategy and deplete your battery all day so you can be unable to fight all night, while you pointlessly burn up all your fuel, running engines wide open to charge your drained batteries, cutting your range by at least 50%. Admiral Lockwood replaced several dozen skippers for doing exactly that.

War is to be fought. That means willingness to take reasonable risk when the payoff is the ability to find and engage targets. On the surface at 9 knots, you search more than 10 times the area per day you can search as an ostrich. That means 10 times more contacts, 10 times more enemies on the bottom. I'm being very conservative here, the real ratio is significantly higher.

According to Bill Wolfe, editor of the United States Submarine Veterans of World War II's newsletter, Polaris, "During 1944, 14% of the CO's were relieved for non-productivity, 30% in 1942 and 14% in 1943." Ostriches were aggressively sought out and relieved of command. We didn't have enough submarines to waste even one trying to hide its head in the sand.

In Thunder Below, Eugene Fluckey goes into excruciating detail about why the yo-yo strategy is absolutely necessary to fight the war, and that submergence is only to be used when absolutely necessary and for the barest minimum possible time. Every second you are below, you should be thinking "why can't I surface NOW?" Guess who took over Admiral Lockwood's command on his retirement? What does that tell you?

[AVGWarhawk]

I stay up as along possible. The fleet type submarine is a boat that is able to submerge for a time. Day or night, I'm on the surface. If a plane is spotted I dive for about 30 minutes. However, close inshores I stay submerged during the day. Stay surfaced as long as possible and most did from what I have read.

[Wilcke]

@AVGWarhawk,

That pic in your sig, you have an announcement to make? Hee, hee, hee, its cute, I get it duuuuuh!

[Bubblehead1980]

Staying under all day and surfacing at night to charge batteries(both the subs and the crew's) was the standard tactic when the war started and many used it for the first part of the war.

Mid to late war some bold skippers decided the yo-yo method was best, and it is.Yo-Yo meaning diving only when have to, to avoid planes or to attack.They also began using night surface attacks from 1943 on, using the submarine as a torpedo boat that could submerge.

Think is, when you stay under all day, you hamper yourself but burning fuel, recharging batteries consumes a lot of fuel, you do this day after day, your time on patrol will be cut short.Also, you can't cover the miles and cant see as far with periscope only, thus wont spot target earlier, so may miss a chance to attack because spotted them too late.

I know this because in early war, I use historic tactics(for the challenge) and stay under all day, surface at night.In mid to late war, I use the yo-yo method and can just see the difference.

Only exception is say if I am near the coast of Japan during day, stay under, because planes will be on fast, plus even the top late war subs like the Tang etc patroled submerged when really close to shore.

Of course, I use mods...TMO 1.9 in particular, in stock I stayed under a lot because of the ridiculous amount of planes.Stock was almost unplayable at times due to the planes.

[Rockin Robbins]

There is some evidence that submarines close to land were caught by surprise when airplanes used the cover of terrain features to sneak up in the radar shadow to plaster submarines. The evidence is sunk submarines. That also shows that captains were willing to take risks to gain tonnage.

[tomoose]

RJ;
I essentially follow your method in that I cruise on the surface as much as possible and dive if there's a perceived threat (usually an air radar contact). Even after a radar contact I'll generally push my luck and wait for a visual sighting before crash diving. Having said that, with the TMO mod, the crash dive takes me deep as the aircraft can still see you at periscope depth.

As RR states, cruising on the surface, even in the daytime, allows me to cover more of my patrol area and saves my batteries for when I need them. As soon as I dive I'm very conscious of what's happening to my batteries and when I need to recharge.

[abclkhan]

Playing TMO 1.9 I prefer to close to straits. This way you can stay submerged and since the targets course is almost the same you only have to employ quick runs and get to afiring point. I use to sink 2-4 ships in an interval of 24 hours submerged. I hope not to be replaced!
lol

... Does it exists any recording of battery endurance and battery level x speed?

[Rockin Robbins]

Yes, it is possible to hang out in a strait submerged, and so long as it is a choke point in a shipping lane, you will find targets. The problem is that you're submerged, burning up your batteries and you'll need those batteries when you get in combat with an escorted target. So you are crippling your ability to fight.

Then when you surface, you have to stay surfaced for very long amounts of time to recharge. Your risk of being spotted is about the same as if you stayed on the surface and just submerged when forced to. But you are not ready to fight because your batteries are always below full charge. There's no peace like knowing you can hit the jets at ahead emergency for 30 minutes and not worry about your battery! It'll save your tail!