The missle defense issue...

[SteamWake]

I'll be honest I am more or less out of the loop on this one and not sure what to make of it.

I know the Polish are pissed.

President Obama dismayed America's allies in Europe and angered his political opponents at home today when he formally ditched plans to set up a missile defence shield in Poland and the Czech Republic.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6838058.ece

[Oberon]

Risky move, but there will also be some in Poland and the Czech Republic who are glad that they are not going to be a target.

I think the biggest message to be sent out though is to Moscow, and if Moscow doesn't get the message and cut back a little on the nuclear arms spending then Obama is going to have egg on his face somewhat.

Still, I can't see this changing too much, to be perfectly honest. Although it might damage Obamas foreign credibility a bit amongst former-WP nations.

[August]

To add insult to injury Obama makes his announcement on the 70th anniversary of the Soviet Unions invasion of Poland.

[Schroeder]

I don't know. I think it is more important to get Russia on our side to deal with Iran. As long as they don't act with the rest of NATO/UN there is no way to put real pressure on Iran.
If the information that the missile shield would be useless for the next few years anyway are true than I don't see a reason why more realistic short term threats shouldn't be taken care of first.

But the time of the announcement was definitely stupid to say the least.

[Shearwater]

Dismayed? Rather relieved, at least as far as I am concerned. The only thing it ever succeeded in was giving the Russians a pretext for rearming their own missile force.
Time to set back the doomsday clock by a few seconds.

[Hunter]

To add insult to injury Obama makes his announcement on the 70th anniversary of the Soviet Unions invasion of Poland.

I know the Polish are pissed.

I think, President Obama wishing it or not has gave a good advise to Poland to stop behaving like a prostitute offering herself to everyone who can secure her in continious russofobia. Dirty intrigues to push the havyweighters to clash each other didn't brough any good to Poland neither 70 years ago nor in our days. At last, someone who had offered herself to have sex should not claim to be a victim after being f*ed and not being paid.

Becides, Polish piss off only proves that at least in Poland they concidered the 'shild' to be aimed aginst Russia not Iran. Anyone interested to support an ally who intend to provoke world war 3 while offering itself as a valantier target for nucler strike? Don't deal with paranoics.

[Skybird]

The technical reliability was in doubt until the end anyway.

It saves money of a nation that mounts and mounts its debts, and already needs the good will of even rivalling nations in order to maintain it's economic survival.

It increases chances for improving geostrategic relations with Russia, whose good will is as important for America as is China's.

In case of Iran continuing it's missle program, Obama left open the option to pick up the missile defense again. That is not so important, since the threat to europe is from nuclear proliferation and terror bombs anyway. From an american perspective it may be seen as an encouragement to Europe to take better care of it's defensive interests itself

But it would need to pay for it with money european nations in depts and deficitary budgets again do not have. In fact the British are considering to abandon their nuclear submarines and aircraftcarriers. Well, we have gone bancrupt over too wasteful ways of living, so what do you expect? Endless business as usual...?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Hunter

I think, President Obama wishing it or not has gave a good advise to Poland to stop behaving like a prostitute offering herself to everyone who can secure her in continious russofobia. Dirty intrigues to push the havyweighters to clash each other didn't brough any good to Poland neither 70 years ago nor in our days. At last, someone who had offered herself to have sex should not claim to be a victim after being f*ed and not being paid.

Becides, Polish piss off only proves that at least in Poland they concidered the 'shild' to be aimed aginst Russia not Iran. Anyone interested to support an ally who intend to provoke world war 3 while offering itself as a valantier target for nucler strike? Don't deal with paranoics.

I must agree in principal here. So far, Polish atttitude of wanting to take revenge on Russia since it has joined NATO and the EU, has not done any good for both organisations, just earned constant poihtless and needless irritations. Occasionally Polish news editors write guest comment sin German newspapers. Just a short while ago there was another one on Obama showing less priroity interest for Poland than Bush - and the writer indeed turned out to be paranoid, and described a conspiracy of america and Russia to minimise Poland and keeping Poland from playing the dominant role in europoean poltiics that thew writer claimed as being natural for Poland.

It is a very strnage mixture of paranoia, inferiority complex and megalomania indeed. Judging by history, I used to have some sollid ammount of understanding for them, assuming that with the years it would sort itself out somewhat. But instead it seems to become worse and worse. It's fair to say that we others in europe are a little bit sick and tired of these constant irritations.

And believe me, this is NO hidden threat of an upcoming German re-invasion planned if they do not finally start to play ball. It really is nothing more than a loud depsrate sigh, and rolling eyes. It's just that many Polish seem to seriously believe indeed that the next German and Russian invasion is just ahead.

Poland, stand up, shake the dust of the past off your shoulder, and stand tall and meet eye to eye with the neighbours you now peacefully live with. Or continue to wallow in fears and echoes from the past, minimise yourself that way and get laughed about - because nothing is more hilarious than a pussy that tries to roar like a big dangerous tiger, but runs away in fear of phantom mice. Life has moved on, you know, and even your suffering was not intense enough as if it would have defined the ultimate end of history. It'S bad the old times have been there, but now they are gone, and it's been over 70 years. Soon no german will live naymore who ever has raised his hand against Poland, and soon no Polish will live asnymore who ever has suffered an evil from a German's hand. The future belongs to the living, the young - not the old and the dead. Start to live now. Stop falling for the past. We don't want to endlessly listen to your laments and conspiracy theories anymore.

[Sea Demon]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Risky move, but there will also be some in Poland and the Czech Republic who are glad that they are not going to be a target.

Your country and theirs will continue to be targets with or without missile defenses. Take the defense away, and it makes the issue even more elementary. I don't know why people across the Atlantic can't seem to grasp that.

I say those in Western Europe who have hampered American efforts at security get what they deserve. I just feel bad for those in Eastern Europe who understand tyrannical government and can see what's happening here.

[MothBalls]

Why is it up to the US to provide missile defense in Europe?

If there is a threat, shouldn't the EU be the ones to take responsibility for it?

Part of this whole thing I didn't understand is tell everyone your going to build it, and then tell everyone exactly where it's going to be. Might as well put up a big sign:

Bomb here first -----> X <------ Bomb here first

Maybe he didn't cancel it. Maybe they'll build it somewhere else and they just aren't telling everyone.

Either way, when we have literally billions of people in the world who don't have clean water, food, or a decent living environment, maybe it's time all countries spend less on weapons and more on real issue the planet is facing.

Maybe they'll build it somewhere else and they just aren't telling everyone.

I thought the new proposal was for land based systems in Turkey plus naval systems in the Med, shifting the systems to the areas closer to the threat they are being said to counter

I think the biggest message to be sent out though is to Moscow, and if Moscow doesn't get the message and cut back a little on the nuclear arms spending then Obama is going to have egg on his face somewhat.

Well there are three things there, first you have the Russian arms deal with Iran, then there is the vote required in the UN which will need Russian backing, lastly Reagans treaty runs out in december and a new one will have to be negotiated with Russia then.
If this move means leverage for any progress on any single one of those upcoming issues then dropping a plan of questionable value is really a tiny price to pay.

[XabbaRus]

The Polish aren't pissed, it is Lech Kazincki who is pissed.

As stated the technical reliabilty was suspect, previous tests had been rigged to pass.

Also the range of Iranian missiles is nowhere enough to threaten Europe and definitely not enough to threaten the US.

I personally think the decision to base them in Poland wasn't to threaten Russia as they could be overwhelmed but to piss Russia off, which is what they succeeded in doing. I think the Bush boys wanted to see Russia react, as she unfortunately did, in typical style so they could say "look Russia is still the bad boy." Lech Potato Head Kazincki hates the Russians and is quite intent on dragging things up rather than letting things stay in the past. BTW he does the same thing with the Germans concerning WWII as he does with Russia for the Soviet Era.....

The Poles seem to forget that it was more than just a few polish people who were complicit with the Soviets running the country. Moscow may have pulled the strings but it was Poles on Poles.

[XabbaRus]

Originally Posted by Sea Demon

Your country and theirs will continue to be targets with or without missile defenses. Take the defense away, and it makes the issue even more elementary. I don't know why people across the Atlantic can't seem to grasp that.

I say those in Western Europe who have hampered American efforts at security get what they deserve. I just feel bad for those in Eastern Europe who understand tyrannical government and can see what's happening here.

One, we didn't ask you set up a missile defence shield for us.

Two, Apart from a few paranoid poles there is no threat from Russia, Russian government though not democratic in the sense of the world is hardly what I call tyrannical and quite frankly can't give a damn about eastern europe. Why do some people insist on thinking that Russia wants to storm back into to Eastern Europe?

The missile shield didn't work, it was a waste of money.

[Freiwillige]

@Skybird

That is just what a German would say right before der invasion!

All joking aside it sounds like the Poland of the late 1930's, all bluff and bluster.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Freiwillige

@Skybird

That is just what a German would say right before der invasion!

All joking aside it sounds like the Poland of the late 1930's, all bluff and bluster.

"A German"? Most Germans in autumn 1939 did not even know that the Nazis were about to stage something, they did not know that something was coming.

And Germany back then and Germany today - are two VERY different Germanies.