Conducting a SAG escort?

MarkShot · 07-28-05, 09:39 PM

When you are required to conduct a SAG escort whose base speed is beyond that of your TA wash out then I presume:

(1) You sprint at flank for X minutes.

(2) Slow to a TA acceptable speed and check all contacts.

(3) Periodically zig-zag such that your course is somewhat oblique across the SAG's base course so that your TA searching leaves no blind spots.

(4) Return to #1.

---

Is that how you should do it?

How long should your sprints be?

Should you sprint at flank given that you are going to be noisy no matter what you do or is it worth going slower?

When you slow to listen should you slow enough to get good use of your bow array or should you keep your speed up and main depend on your TA?

Of course this approach leaves the flanks of the SAG exposed to a fast attack sub, but there is only so much that one sub can do, I suppose.

Thanks.

TLAM Strike · 07-28-05, 10:01 PM

Forget your bow sonar unless your using Active, the passive mode is next to useless (I saw no visual indication of a 30knot cavitating VicIII that was a mile away. But I could still mark it).

Remember to use Buoys when Zig Zaging so you can keep tabs on what has left your TA's sensor area when you ziged, a skilled skipper can sneak in though the hole.

And keep your helo(s) sweaping the area ahead of your SAG with buoys.

Pigfish · 07-28-05, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

Forget your bow sonar unless your using Active, the passive mode is next to useless (I saw no visual indication of a 30knot cavitating VicIII that was a mile away. But I could still mark it).

I would like to see this station improved. So we could see something visually. Ive picked up subs at some fair distances (too far I think) so is good for a second sensor for auto TMA. Wont auto update though.

Some times I will go to this station first, flick around and see what I get, then go to TA and mark contacts. Saves me time turning to resolve cuz one of your two initial TA contacts will end up merging so I know which one to drop. Also helps in IDing bios. If I can get a contact on hull but not on towed (unless real close BB) then I know its a bio.

The only thing Ive ever seen visually is torps. I cant believe the bow array is this bad in real life.

Just MHO

MarkShot · 07-28-05, 11:14 PM

Okay, I should have stated that I am commanding a sub (the Seawolf).

This question actually arises from playing the SC 1.08 Seawolf campaign, but I figured all the post-WWII sub experts hangout in the DW forum these days. Also, I figured that the right answer should be the same for the Seawolf regardless of whether it is SC or DW.

Thanks.

MarkShot · 07-29-05, 08:38 AM

What? It has been 12 hours since my last post and no help?

Is it considered improper to ask generic SC/DW sub questions (after all the games are similar in that regard) in the DW forum?

Thanks.

timmyg00 · 07-29-05, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkShot

Is that how you should do it?

Yes!

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkShot

How long should your sprints be?

That depends on the SAG's speed and what sort of distance you need to maintain ahead of the SAG, and how long you intend your "drift" (search) leg to be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkShot

Should you sprint at flank given that you are going to be noisy no matter what you do or is it worth going slower?

Tough question, but the Seawolf is quieter than the other subs at higher speeds, so you might be able to risk a flank-bell sprint. Again, this depends on the factors mentioned above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkShot

When you slow to listen should you slow enough to get good use of your bow array or should you keep your speed up and main depend on your TA?

Your bow array is largely useless for initial detections of subs unless they are old, noisy ones, so that is not a consideration. However, slowing down to limit self-noise and flow noise over the array is advisable. I would set my maximum drift speed no greater than 9 or 10 knots... slower if you have the time to drift for a while.

TG

PeriscopeDepth · 07-29-05, 02:37 PM

Is escorting SAGs something US SSNs do/would do in real life? It seems to me that the presence of a friendly submarine would really make life complicated for friendly ASW forces in the SAG.

I understand that SSNs are attached to aircraft carrier groups, but aren't they usually a few hundred miles in front when used as the "pointman"? rather than the 15 or so miles ahead of the SAG that we see in some missions.

If they actually do do this, what kind of coordination in there? Do they spend a lot of time at antenna depth?

MarkShot · 07-29-05, 04:03 PM

Well, I just read a paper yesterday from a link on this site that said the reason the LA Class were built for high speed was so that they could do escort missions (although they were rarely tasked with that). The point of the article is that few classes ever got/get tasked to do what they were designed to.

Well, I just completed the SAG escort scenario and failed it. Two of my three charges are still alive, but no longer underway; thus, they will never reach the goal line. I sank all six enemy subs. The whole scenario seems a little bizarre: the player must suceed at 6:1 odds while maintaining an average forward advance of 24KTS. Apparently, the surface ships are helpless/hopeless since they are not able to effectively perform any ASW themselves.

Now, I understand the idea of maintaining a generally fast transit by using sprint and drift. But the reality is that once the torpedoes start flying, I need to honor the threat and/or sink the enemy. This makes it impossible to sustain a 24KTS average. Granted that the enemy do not have the same quality sensors as my Seawolf, but that is pretty much negated by repeated high speed sprints where I must sound like a freight train.

Finally, as part of the sprint and drift I need to zig-zag in order to make sure that I don't run the risk of having a continuous blind spot. Thus, some of my 34KTS sprinting is lateral motion as opposed to base course progress; meaning that I am not evening making 34KTS when sprinting.

Does anyone have suggestions for this type of scenario?

Thanks.

timmyg00 · 07-29-05, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeriscopeDepth

Is escorting SAGs something US SSNs do/would do in real life? It seems to me that the presence of a friendly submarine would really make life complicated for friendly ASW forces in the SAG.

I understand that SSNs are attached to aircraft carrier groups, but aren't they usually a few hundred miles in front when used as the "pointman"? rather than the 15 or so miles ahead of the SAG that we see in some missions.

If they actually do do this, what kind of coordination in there? Do they spend a lot of time at antenna depth?

That's hard to say, now that the Cold War is "over". While the Cold War was winding down in the 90s, we still practiced coordinated ops with CVBGs, and SSNs are still assigned to CVBGs when they deploy. However, I believe that the distant-pointman assignment is more likely than a station assignment closer to the CVBGs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkShot

Well, I just read a paper yesterday from a link on this site that said the reason the LA Class were built for high speed was so that they could do escort missions (although they were rarely tasked with that). The point of the article is that few classes ever got/get tasked to do what they were designed to.

Well, I just completed the SAG escort scenario and failed it. Two of my three charges are still alive, but no longer underway; thus, they will never reach the goal line. I sank all six enemy subs. The whole scenario seems a little bizarre: the player must suceed at 6:1 odds while maintaining an average forward advance of 24KTS. Apparently, the surface ships are helpless/hopeless since they are not able to effectively perform any ASW themselves.

Now, I understand the idea of maintaining a generally fast transit by using sprint and drift. But the reality is that once the torpedoes start flying, I need to honor the threat and/or sink the enemy. This makes it impossible to sustain a 24KTS average. Granted that the enemy do not have the same quality sensors as my Seawolf, but that is pretty much negated by repeated high speed sprints where I must sound like a freight train.

Finally, as part of the sprint and drift I need to zig-zag in order to make sure that I don't run the risk of having a continuous blind spot. Thus, some of my 34KTS sprinting is lateral motion as opposed to base course progress; meaning that I am not evening making 34KTS when sprinting.

Does anyone have suggestions for this type of scenario?

Thanks.

I think that the close-aboard ASW support missions that we see with subs escorting high-speed SAGs and CVBGs are somewhat unrealistic.

Zig-zagging at high speed in order to "clear your baffles (blind spot)" is useless, since you're most likely already deafened by self-noise and flow noise. During the sprint phase, the only reason not to transit on the base course would be to confuse the enemy's TMA; otherwise, to maintain an SOA, you should sprint along a course as close to the base course as practical. You should change course to clear baffles during the drift phase, while actively listening.

I don't have any hints for finishing missions that were not constructed with a reasonable chance for player success... except to try to find a new mission to play

This community is always good for some new missions, and the pickings will probably become even better as more people learn to use the mission editor.

TG

MarkShot · 07-29-05, 05:32 PM

I was sprinting on zig-zags of about 15 degrees each way off of base course. I wasn't actually changing course at flank; only after stopping to listen.

However, I see your point: sprinting on base course would yield increased forward progress and then I could simply pivot when slowed down to listen. Of course, you would probably have longer drift portions, since you would need for the TA to come about. I had been changing course prior to a sprint and thus using the sprint to also stabilize my TA.

I agree that the mission probably doesn't reflect a realistic use of such a high value resource. There are some even more amusing single missions where you are doing the same kind of escort, but in water barely deep enough to submerge ... leaving you with no choice, but to cavitate like a blender.

Maybe its time to just start playing SCXIIc and the community designed missions and campaigns.

timmyg00 · 07-29-05, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkShot

I had been changing course prior to a sprint and thus using the sprint to also stabilize my TA.

I've done that too, if I thought I could get away with it.... but with the DW sound-speed fix installed, I'm not too sure I want to risk it

TG

07-28-05, 10:01 PM	#2
TLAM Strike Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Rochester, New York Posts: 8,633 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 6	Forget your bow sonar unless your using Active, the passive mode is next to useless (I saw no visual indication of a 30knot cavitating VicIII that was a mile away. But I could still mark it). Remember to use Buoys when Zig Zaging so you can keep tabs on what has left your TA's sensor area when you ziged, a skilled skipper can sneak in though the hole. And keep your helo(s) sweaping the area ahead of your SAG with buoys. __________________

07-28-05, 11:14 PM	#4
MarkShot Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,134 Downloads: 93 Uploads: 0	Okay, I should have stated that I am commanding a sub (the Seawolf). This question actually arises from playing the SC 1.08 Seawolf campaign, but I figured all the post-WWII sub experts hangout in the DW forum these days. Also, I figured that the right answer should be the same for the Seawolf regardless of whether it is SC or DW. Thanks. __________________ War games, not wars! --- Only a small few profit from war (that should not stand)!

07-29-05, 08:38 AM	#5
MarkShot Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,134 Downloads: 93 Uploads: 0	What? It has been 12 hours since my last post and no help? Is it considered improper to ask generic SC/DW sub questions (after all the games are similar in that regard) in the DW forum? Thanks. __________________ War games, not wars! --- Only a small few profit from war (that should not stand)!

07-29-05, 04:03 PM	#8
MarkShot Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,134 Downloads: 93 Uploads: 0	Well, I just read a paper yesterday from a link on this site that said the reason the LA Class were built for high speed was so that they could do escort missions (although they were rarely tasked with that). The point of the article is that few classes ever got/get tasked to do what they were designed to. Well, I just completed the SAG escort scenario and failed it. Two of my three charges are still alive, but no longer underway; thus, they will never reach the goal line. I sank all six enemy subs. The whole scenario seems a little bizarre: the player must suceed at 6:1 odds while maintaining an average forward advance of 24KTS. Apparently, the surface ships are helpless/hopeless since they are not able to effectively perform any ASW themselves. Now, I understand the idea of maintaining a generally fast transit by using sprint and drift. But the reality is that once the torpedoes start flying, I need to honor the threat and/or sink the enemy. This makes it impossible to sustain a 24KTS average. Granted that the enemy do not have the same quality sensors as my Seawolf, but that is pretty much negated by repeated high speed sprints where I must sound like a freight train. Finally, as part of the sprint and drift I need to zig-zag in order to make sure that I don't run the risk of having a continuous blind spot. Thus, some of my 34KTS sprinting is lateral motion as opposed to base course progress; meaning that I am not evening making 34KTS when sprinting. Does anyone have suggestions for this type of scenario? Thanks. __________________ War games, not wars! --- Only a small few profit from war (that should not stand)!

07-29-05, 05:32 PM	#10
MarkShot Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,134 Downloads: 93 Uploads: 0	I was sprinting on zig-zags of about 15 degrees each way off of base course. I wasn't actually changing course at flank; only after stopping to listen. However, I see your point: sprinting on base course would yield increased forward progress and then I could simply pivot when slowed down to listen. Of course, you would probably have longer drift portions, since you would need for the TA to come about. I had been changing course prior to a sprint and thus using the sprint to also stabilize my TA. I agree that the mission probably doesn't reflect a realistic use of such a high value resource. There are some even more amusing single missions where you are doing the same kind of escort, but in water barely deep enough to submerge ... leaving you with no choice, but to cavitate like a blender. Maybe its time to just start playing SCXIIc and the community designed missions and campaigns. __________________ War games, not wars! --- Only a small few profit from war (that should not stand)!

07-28-05, 09:39 PM	#1
MarkShot Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,134 Downloads: 93 Uploads: 0	Conducting a SAG escort? When you are required to conduct a SAG escort whose base speed is beyond that of your TA wash out then I presume: (1) You sprint at flank for X minutes. (2) Slow to a TA acceptable speed and check all contacts. (3) Periodically zig-zag such that your course is somewhat oblique across the SAG's base course so that your TA searching leaves no blind spots. (4) Return to #1. --- Is that how you should do it? How long should your sprints be? Should you sprint at flank given that you are going to be noisy no matter what you do or is it worth going slower? When you slow to listen should you slow enough to get good use of your bow array or should you keep your speed up and main depend on your TA? Of course this approach leaves the flanks of the SAG exposed to a fast attack sub, but there is only so much that one sub can do, I suppose. Thanks. __________________ War games, not wars! --- Only a small few profit from war (that should not stand)!

07-29-05, 02:37 PM	#7
PeriscopeDepth Sea Lord Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Pacific NW Posts: 1,894 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	Is escorting SAGs something US SSNs do/would do in real life? It seems to me that the presence of a friendly submarine would really make life complicated for friendly ASW forces in the SAG. I understand that SSNs are attached to aircraft carrier groups, but aren't they usually a few hundred miles in front when used as the "pointman"? rather than the 15 or so miles ahead of the SAG that we see in some missions. If they actually do do this, what kind of coordination in there? Do they spend a lot of time at antenna depth?