Wikipedia excommunicates Church of Scientology - Page 2

05-30-09, 07:26 PM

Perhaps I was wrong. Does not the Gov't tax members of the Catholic church?

Aramike · 05-30-09, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CastleBravo

Does that distinction apply to other organizations also? That would be a litmus test....no?

I don't follow your question.

Also, it must be noted that Wikipedia is clearly not a government - it has the right to chose who contributes to its site.

Still, I don't get your point. Very simply put, Wiki has decided to ban an organized effort from a "religion" to taint its pages. Wiki has NOT banned individuals - only the organization's efforts. What is wrong with that?

05-30-09, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aramike

I don't follow your question.

Also, it must be noted that Wikipedia is clearly not a government - it has the right to chose who contributes to its site.

Still, I don't get your point. Very simply put, Wiki has decided to ban an organized effort from a "religion" to taint its pages. Wiki has NOT banned individuals - only the organization's efforts. What is wrong with that?

I guess because organisations are comprised of individuals. If Scientology is so evil and out to corrupt the Germans and French don't you think they can mobilize individuals on wiki?

Perhaps its something else advancing wiki's agenda?

Aramike · 05-31-09, 03:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CastleBravo

I guess because organisations are comprised of individuals. If Scientology is so evil and out to corrupt the Germans and French don't you think they can mobilize individuals on wiki?

Perhaps its something else advancing wiki's agenda?

No kidding all organizations are compromised of individuals. However, all organizations ultimately leave a select few acting in interest of the collective of individuals. If Wiki (a private organization itself) decides that a certain other organization is official acting in a way which compromises the former's goals, it has every right to ban them from utilizing the service.

Sure, the French and the Germans COULD organize against Scientology's Wiki-propaganda, but why would Wiki want to allow their encyclopedia become little more than a battleground for warring interests? Also, putting the perrogative on the "defenders" to protect a private institution's intellectual interests is inherently flawed as it is akin to allowing any "Pink Unicorn" theorist organization to have the same credentials as, say, Isaac Newton and his laws of physics.

Also, I must admit that I find it interesting and disturbing that you'd be so fast to defend the "rights" of an organization such as Scientololgy while completely bypassing the rights of an organization such as Wiki ...

In all honesty, I do wonder if you're a Scientologist because you've convieniently side-stepped the idea that Wiki is an organization with rights as well, making it seem as though there's self-interest involved...

Skybird · 05-31-09, 03:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CastleBravo

Perhaps I was wrong. Does not the Gov't tax members of the Catholic church?

They do the formalities and collect it, yes, but hand it over to the church, in parts directly, in parts in indirect procedures, which is true for the Protestant church as well. The church tax is not kept by the state. As I understand it, it is not in all nations like in Germany. Also, church membership is marked on German tax cards.

Of course, churches should live by voluntary donations of their local members exclusively. The German system of mandatory taxes derives from the medieval habit of having to give a tenth of your harvest and income to the church, no matter what.

05-31-09, 05:12 AM

So how long till some Scientology Messiah gets crucified, then they start killing people who don't believe in their religion?

Then once half the world believes in their religion, how long till they start sending crusades to kill the other half?

Calling it now, 400ish years and you Christians will be a minor religion along with us Pagan lads.

....

...

:rotfl:

Skybird · 05-31-09, 05:58 AM

Religions grow over history, on the basis of some events being told from generation to generation, history becomes hear-say, hear-say becomes legend. Religions do not get just decided to be that, and do not get switched on from one week to the other.

In scientology, which originally was "switched on" only for reasons of profit raising and tax-evasion in the US, you have to pay money for your salvation and freedom. to get "knowledge" in form of psycho-courses and books to continue your "cleaning", you have to pay more and more money for buying these things. when you reached the next level, you will need to pay even more money to get taught for the following level of cleaning yourself and making it to the next grade. It is a snowball system that gets implemented to work and run inside your own mind. After some time you will find that courses and books will cost you thousands and tens of thousands of dollars (not to mention that these books are filled with pseudo-psychologic bull). All your life will focus on making that money to pa it to them,. so that you make it to the next holy grade of their hilarious cleaning hierarchy, and gain access to that secret superior knowledge of theirs (a knwledge imagined and put together by a really less than mediocre SF-author, mind you).

what kind of "religion" should this be where wealth equals "holiness" and being clean? What kind of respectability is there in a business that focusses on money exclusively, ruins individual existences and rips families apart, turning people into craving addicts for making it to the next degree, giving up all their existence, social secuity, income, property and hand it all over to them? What humanity is to be found in an ideology that brutally exploits the initial curiosity and vulnerability of the naive mind? what is to be tolerated in a company-business that sells the implicit idea that the ultimate salvation of your soul is only accessible for those being extremely rich, and those who are not - then are doomed? Is money the gauge that decides whether or not your soul is to reach freedom and salvation? Deserves this ideology your respect and tolerance, at the price of your society being turned into a slave-pool for the profit-raising by a company?

You should think a bit better of your tolerance, you shold consider it to be a bit more valuable and precious, and you should be a bit more choosy in what you tolerate.

When the level of your personal holiness is decided by how much millions you own, what does this tell you about this ideology? When you buy your way towards heavenly cleanness and purification in dependance of how much money you give them? and when the knoweldge of freedom and purification is only for the rich, where as the not as rich get ripped off without mercy and get lead into mental and psychological total dependence until psychologic breakdown, suicide attempts, depression, despair? When critics get sued and sued and sued at courts over years, get intimidated and threatened, get mobbed in the public, and lies being told about them in order to destroy their public reputation and respectability and destroy their existential basis in their jobs?

It is ultra-capitalistic money-making, hidden in the cloathings of a claimed "religion" to make it unavailable for any criticism, and trying to maximise financial profits by infinite exploitation of human ressources beyond breaking points, without limits, and trying to impose this way of practicing on key social institutions, and anchoring it in the economy as well. Psycho-sects like this create only this: misery, slavery, abuse of the many for the wellbeing of the very few running the whole show. It is sectarianism of the worst kind.

It deserves your utmost disgust - not your tolerance, not your defence, not your respect, not your laissez-faire. Criminals like this are not to be tolerated. they are to be fought against, they are to be driven back, forced out, minimised in their influence and denied in their opportunity to unfold.

In other words: kick them until they are gone. This hilariously so-called "church" is anything but a religion, it is just a ruthlessly acting company, and slavery and psychological and financial exploitation are its core business. They are criminals, have repeatedly found to violate basic human rights and the dignity of humans as well as economy laws and tax laws, they have been found guilty of keeping people as prisoners and kidnapping people and children, they are highly aggressive, malicious, lying, brutal and unscrupellous, in short: they are extremely dangerous. They are not to be protected by the constitution - they aim at destroying basic values of the constitution - both the American and German ones.

One must undergo a brain lobotomy to believe their claim to be a religion, and to tolerate and protect their activities. That is just madness.

Frame57 · 05-31-09, 12:14 PM

What'w wrong with scientology?

Didn't we get that fantastic movie "Battlefield Earth" Eh, never mind...

05-31-09, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

In other words: kick them until they are gone.

The christians will back me on saying: destroying a religion is impossible, the moment it gets recorded into history, there will always be somebody believing in it.

It's especially impossible to do in this day and age where you are not allowed to force your beliefs on somebody.

Torplexed · 05-31-09, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rilder

The christians will back me on saying: destroying a religion is impossible, the moment it gets recorded into history, there will always be somebody believing in it.

I dunno. Is there anyone still worshiping Ra, Zeus or Thor anymore? Just curious.

05-31-09, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torplexed

I dunno. Is there anyone still worshiping Ra, Zeus or Thor anymore? Just curious.

Your looking at one. (Well the posts of one)

Not really a believer in The Egyptian Pantheon though, to much emphasis on death.

Skybird · 05-31-09, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rilder

The christians will back me on saying: destroying a religion is impossible, the moment it gets recorded into history, there will always be somebody believing in it.

It is no religion. It is a company doing a criminal business to the utmost cost of its victims. It can be banned. Violating that prohibition can bring their leaders into court, like the Mafia's godfathers can be caught and locked.

This is no religion at all. It just is a company with a long criminal record.

What some nuthead is believing in the backyard of their homes is not so important. Thoughts are freer, so are fantasies. To crack down on the company's business structure, to interrupt it's business routines, and to identify and keep away scientologists from sensible jobs in the economy, the educational field and politics - this is what counts.

Scientology is no case for philosophers and theologists. It is a case for the police.

BTW, Ron Hubbard himself has written and said that he does not consider his creation to be a religion or a psycho-therapy. He also wrote that since religions often do get understood to be social reform organisations, scientology must try to look like a social reform organsiation and must cloak itself as a religion, and while the public is obedient to ministers, scientology therefore must show them what ministers are.

Cloaking is the name of the game. And some of you people are even falling for it.

SUBMAN1 · 05-31-09, 07:59 PM

Does banning this result in the first step towards banning Christianity? It might be. Things always start in a subtle way.

Christianity is under attack in every country these days. This is in a time where the violent acts of terrorists for Islam are heralded as good deeds.

Someone wake me up, but when did this nightmare start? Obviously it is the direct result of the weakening of Western civ and the ultimate turn away from god. But the end time has to come someday. Welcome to that end.

Even if I were an atheist, I would be looking upon these times with great alarm. Islam is coming for you. If Christianity were the Ying and Islam the Yang, seems you have created a vacuum for them to take over even you. No longer are things balanced. You will try and ban them to, but you will fail. You are already overrun.

-S

bookworm_020 · 05-31-09, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

BTW, Ron Hubbard himself has written and said that he does not consider his creation to be a religion or a psycho-therapy. He also wrote that since religions often do get understood to be social reform organisations, scientology must try to look like a social reform organsiation and must cloak itself as a religion, and while the public is obedient to ministers, scientology therefore must show them what ministers are.

HE also stated at a science fiction writers gathering just before he started scientology, that if you really want to make money, you need to create your own religion.

Where scientology really falls down is the fact that it descriminates against people it doesn't want. Where have you seen scientologist's helping the poor or underprivileged?, in particular when there isn't a camera around. The way it charges so much for it's "cures" and "improvements" and says that they are required if you want to belong is a bussiness, not a religion.

I'm suprised they don't try telelmarketing! They would reach plenty of gullible people willing to spend money on useless objects!

05-31-09, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

Does banning this result in the first step towards banning Christianity? It might be. Things always start in a subtle way.

Christianity is under attack in every country these days. This is in a time where the violent acts of terrorists for Islam are heralded as good deeds.

Someone wake me up, but when did this nightmare start? Obviously it is the direct result of the weakening of Western civ and the ultimate turn away from god. But the end time has to come someday. Welcome to that end.

Even if I were an atheist, I would be looking upon these times with great alarm. Islam is coming for you. If Christianity were the Ying and Islam the Yang, seems you have created a vacuum for them to take over even you. No longer are things balanced. You will try and ban them to, but you will fail. You are already overrun.

-S

Heh, I'd be more worried about christians coming for me. :rotfl:

05-31-09, 05:58 AM	#22
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,830 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Religions grow over history, on the basis of some events being told from generation to generation, history becomes hear-say, hear-say becomes legend. Religions do not get just decided to be that, and do not get switched on from one week to the other. In scientology, which originally was "switched on" only for reasons of profit raising and tax-evasion in the US, you have to pay money for your salvation and freedom. to get "knowledge" in form of psycho-courses and books to continue your "cleaning", you have to pay more and more money for buying these things. when you reached the next level, you will need to pay even more money to get taught for the following level of cleaning yourself and making it to the next grade. It is a snowball system that gets implemented to work and run inside your own mind. After some time you will find that courses and books will cost you thousands and tens of thousands of dollars (not to mention that these books are filled with pseudo-psychologic bull). All your life will focus on making that money to pa it to them,. so that you make it to the next holy grade of their hilarious cleaning hierarchy, and gain access to that secret superior knowledge of theirs (a knwledge imagined and put together by a really less than mediocre SF-author, mind you). what kind of "religion" should this be where wealth equals "holiness" and being clean? What kind of respectability is there in a business that focusses on money exclusively, ruins individual existences and rips families apart, turning people into craving addicts for making it to the next degree, giving up all their existence, social secuity, income, property and hand it all over to them? What humanity is to be found in an ideology that brutally exploits the initial curiosity and vulnerability of the naive mind? what is to be tolerated in a company-business that sells the implicit idea that the ultimate salvation of your soul is only accessible for those being extremely rich, and those who are not - then are doomed? Is money the gauge that decides whether or not your soul is to reach freedom and salvation? Deserves this ideology your respect and tolerance, at the price of your society being turned into a slave-pool for the profit-raising by a company? You should think a bit better of your tolerance, you shold consider it to be a bit more valuable and precious, and you should be a bit more choosy in what you tolerate. When the level of your personal holiness is decided by how much millions you own, what does this tell you about this ideology? When you buy your way towards heavenly cleanness and purification in dependance of how much money you give them? and when the knoweldge of freedom and purification is only for the rich, where as the not as rich get ripped off without mercy and get lead into mental and psychological total dependence until psychologic breakdown, suicide attempts, depression, despair? When critics get sued and sued and sued at courts over years, get intimidated and threatened, get mobbed in the public, and lies being told about them in order to destroy their public reputation and respectability and destroy their existential basis in their jobs? It is ultra-capitalistic money-making, hidden in the cloathings of a claimed "religion" to make it unavailable for any criticism, and trying to maximise financial profits by infinite exploitation of human ressources beyond breaking points, without limits, and trying to impose this way of practicing on key social institutions, and anchoring it in the economy as well. Psycho-sects like this create only this: misery, slavery, abuse of the many for the wellbeing of the very few running the whole show. It is sectarianism of the worst kind. It deserves your utmost disgust - not your tolerance, not your defence, not your respect, not your laissez-faire. Criminals like this are not to be tolerated. they are to be fought against, they are to be driven back, forced out, minimised in their influence and denied in their opportunity to unfold. In other words: kick them until they are gone. This hilariously so-called "church" is anything but a religion, it is just a ruthlessly acting company, and slavery and psychological and financial exploitation are its core business. They are criminals, have repeatedly found to violate basic human rights and the dignity of humans as well as economy laws and tax laws, they have been found guilty of keeping people as prisoners and kidnapping people and children, they are highly aggressive, malicious, lying, brutal and unscrupellous, in short: they are extremely dangerous. They are not to be protected by the constitution - they aim at destroying basic values of the constitution - both the American and German ones. One must undergo a brain lobotomy to believe their claim to be a religion, and to tolerate and protect their activities. That is just madness. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert. Last edited by Skybird; 05-31-09 at 06:14 AM.

05-31-09, 12:14 PM	#23
Frame57 Sea Lord Join Date: May 2008 Location: 1300 feet on the crapper Posts: 1,860 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	What'w wrong with scientology?Didn't we get that fantastic movie "Battlefield Earth" Eh, never mind... __________________ "My Religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble minds." Albert Einstein

05-31-09, 07:59 PM	#28
SUBMAN1 Rear Admiral Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 11,866 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Does banning this result in the first step towards banning Christianity? It might be. Things always start in a subtle way. Christianity is under attack in every country these days. This is in a time where the violent acts of terrorists for Islam are heralded as good deeds. Someone wake me up, but when did this nightmare start? Obviously it is the direct result of the weakening of Western civ and the ultimate turn away from god. But the end time has to come someday. Welcome to that end. Even if I were an atheist, I would be looking upon these times with great alarm. Islam is coming for you. If Christianity were the Ying and Islam the Yang, seems you have created a vacuum for them to take over even you. No longer are things balanced. You will try and ban them to, but you will fail. You are already overrun. -S __________________

05-30-09, 07:26 PM	#16
CastleBravo Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Perhaps I was wrong. Does not the Gov't tax members of the Catholic church?

05-31-09, 05:12 AM	#21
Rilder Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	So how long till some Scientology Messiah gets crucified, then they start killing people who don't believe in their religion? Then once half the world believes in their religion, how long till they start sending crusades to kill the other half? Calling it now, 400ish years and you Christians will be a minor religion along with us Pagan lads. .... ... :rotfl: