Whats your take on this?

[Aramike]

Originally Posted by RickC Sniper

You have done alot of research Frank, and sure there are a lot of experts who disagree with each other.

The most troubling thing to me is how both of the Twin towers collapsed in the same way, just a short time apart. One plane, hitting a tower, everything happening just perfectly so it brings the tower down. Ok, I see how that might happen....once.
But both towers got hit by planes and both collapsed in the same timely manner. Very lucky for the terrorists? Possible, and my conscience accepts this because the alternative is too unsettling.

I don't believe in the conspiracy theories but the sad fact is we will never know more than we know now......so we must all believe what\who we choose to.

Aramike you make a great point.

Thanks ... but you should put your mind at ease. Two massive buildings, each hit by airplanes, each of the same design, are likely to see the same result - especially considering that the collapse of the first building is likely to cause additional foundation damage to the other.

[Torpex752]

Hey Aramike & Monica, I assure you I am not motivated by conspiracies....I can look at things critically with my own 2 eyes, that’s why I say look at what is said, not who.

I do find it sad that they get called nuts, wackos, idiots, conspiracy theorists, and a host of other names by the people we are "respecting to give us the truth". I find that strange. I mean, it really strikes me as odd to call someone with a different angle, or idea a wacko. But then again the men who said we could put a man on the moon were called wackos by quite a few......years later..........The Eagle has landed. So name calling serves no useful purpose.

All I suggest it to be open minded to the possibility that there were other elements at work. I know if I built those towers I'd be fired up if someone told me that they fell from the very thing I designed them to withstand. I'd be all sorts of pi$$in mad. I know how it is when I do maintenance to something mechanical, and it fails and someone says its because I didn’t do the maintenance. And don’t forget 3 towers fell that day...the 3rd a 47 story that was never hit by a plane.

Foundation damage, seems unlikely since they fell from the top down..of if you agree they did fall from the bottom up, then what foundation fails on a perfect perimeter to allow the building to fall in its own footprint. If it fell over, that would fit that theory. In any event 3 perfect foundation failures in one day..

Aramike, you mention motive. But Yet I cant give a motive without getting branded a conspiracy theorist. If I give a couple possible options, other then the ones mentioned in the past years will I get branded a conspiracy theorist? So if I do refrain from making any guestimations because of threats of name calling, who benefits? In any event, if you look at the 3 elements of a crime, means, motive and opportunity, that’s how you look at a crime scene regardless of who the criminals are.

My beef is that anyone who disagrees with the official story is branded a nut, a wacko simply because they believe in something other then the advertised story. So if we close the door and say that the planes were the cause, how have other current high rise sky scrapers been corrected to prevent this? Absolutely nothing has changed. In other words, follow the official story like a different type of disaster or problem. Auto recalls, jet liner malfunctions, bridges collapsing, trains colliding. they get analyzed down to the absolute root cause leaving not one bolt, poprivit, or weld left unexamined. And thats usually for 2-300 deaths. Not one weld, bolt, or pin was examined or analyzed. And then the steel that the NIST team did look at that was showing signs of erosion (melting by an external source) they called unexplained. Yet they state that the fire caused the steel to fail.

I listened to the audio files that recorded the explosions before the towers fell. The video of a car shredded before the towers fell. There are some strange things that were never explained, and I honestly believe that they deserved to be explained .
Listen to the firefighters;



I can tell you my motive is that I know steel..not in the scientific sense, but in the practical application sense. I am not supporting the theorists; however I am supporting the factualists. the guys who build the tallest buildings out of steel, a substance that is tough, durable and very resistant to shock. They guys who say those towers shouldn’t have fallen from plane hits and fires have a leg to stand on, have some good practical information and facts, yet are called kooks. Sad day in America.

Lets play devils advocate...since this group of Engineers has only one other idea, the govt doesn’t have to spend loads of time disproving a dozen other theories, there’s only one other possible scenario being proposed (and its not aliens LOL), why not allow it to be openly discussed? Give it its day in court/hearing/whatever. If these guys are nuts, they ruin their jobs and all the 9/11 truth .orgs fizzle away. We do still live in a free and open society? I hope.

I also hope no one gets emotionally twisted thinking that because I posted this stuff that there is any shred of belief in me that those who perished that day deserve any less reverence then they have. I was active duty that day, and their loss brought a stream of revenge out in everyone I was with that day. Nor would any discovery of anything change how we feel about them, the victims.

Frank

[Monica Lewinsky]

Originally Posted by Torpex752

Hey Aramike & Monica, I assure you I am not motivated by conspiracies....I can look at things critically with my own 2 eyes, that’s why I say look at what is said, not who.

I think you are in need of oxygen - vast amounts. Get some soon.

Live long, prosper, propagate, and forget that the Nation Enquirer is a source of news.

ps:
Wrap your head in aluminum foil [twice - just in case].

The Aliens will leave you alone [only if you wear aluminum foil around your head] to go about doing "your thing".

What's your read on John F. Kennedy? 3 bullets or 6?

jeez ... wacky torpedoes are being launched.

[Torpex752]

Originally Posted by Monica Lewinsky

I think you are in need of oxygen - vast amounts. Get some soon.

Live long, prosper, propagate, and forget that the Nation Enquirer is a source of news.

ps:
Wrap your head in aluminum foil [twice - just in case].

The Aliens will leave you alone to go about posting other useless things.

What's your read on John F. Kennedy?

jeez ... wacky.

Give someone enough light and they show who they are.

ps-why edit?

[Spike88]

[Aramike]

My beef is that anyone who disagrees with the official story is branded a nut, a wacko simply because they believe in something other then the advertised story.

It's not that someone who believes in something other than the official story is a "wacko", it's moreso that someone who believes in something other than the official story, and supports that belief through junk science, is a "wacko" (not saying that's you; just saying).

To go to one of my old favorite standbys, wouldn't we all agree that the followers of the Flat Earth Society are a bunch of nutjobs?

Look, we KNOW what happened on 9/11 - the proof was there for all to see, live on practically every TV station in America. Then, come investigation time, the forensics completely add up, as do common sense. Following that, a few nutjobs here and there take quotes out of context and/or write papers attempting to explain how forensically things do not add up, despite not using science to support their claims.

For instance, my personal favorite, was how steel doesn't melt at the temperature jetfuel burns at, and therefore this proves there was a demolition. It's a funny premise considering any idiot with half a brain could have researched to see that, while the temperature of jetfuel indeed doesn't melt steel, it DOES weaken it DRAMATICALLY, more than enough to contribute to a collapse. Oh, and there was undoubtedly other substances that caught fire and burned...

My point is that the truth is always the truth. The wacko stuff comes in when people attempt to redefine the truth in support of their predispositions. Doing so about the tragedy of 9/11 is intellectual dishonesty at its worst, in my opinion.

2-Based on the black smoke (Black smoke indicates poor combustion of materials not burning at their peak temp) the temps in the towers didnt exceed 1200dF.

Yeah right , lots of different fires with lots of different materials under lots of constantly differing conditions .
So if you take a wholly controlled situation with one material , very high temperatures and boosted oxygen feed like a cement kiln ,why would they have to fit secondary burners in the stack to further reduce black smoke ?

The Fires in the South Tower were reported by the fire chief as under control, he needed one more hose...

Bollox , for starters he asked for two more hoses and he didn't say the fires in the South Tower were under control . He said that the two existing fires that he could access from the stairwell on one floor of the building could be brought under control.

Sorry Torpex but that conspiracy theory website you are using is absolute fruitcake territory

[Dowly]

Sorry for hijacking the thread, but I think we have enough of 'conspiracy' threads already to make a new one. If the original posted wants, he can contact moderators to separate this post and any following posts that this might cause on this particular issue.

Right, Waco. You know, the tragic event on 1993 where the Branch Davidians were holed on their 'compound' on Mt. Carmel which eventually, after 51 days, was brought to an end with the whole compound being burned down completely by either the Davidians themselves or by CS gas grenades that were fired by FBI/ATF/Delta operators (or observers as it's mentioned in official papers).

Ok, at first, I'd want to say that I really cant decide who is to blame about it. I'm neutral. But I'd like to know what everyone thinks about it?

Meanwhile, I just write here few of my questions that I have about it (mind you, these are questions that were brought up in the congressional hearings):

1: Why FBI lied about not firing a single shot, when there has been supposedly found fired cartridges at one of the sniper points (Sierra one, I believe it was).

2: Why there is key evidence missing? Namely the front door, that was a metal door(Would show if shots are fired by David Koresh thru the door as ATF says). ATF/FBI agents clearly said in the earlier hearings that the door is missing. They had it, but it's missing. Same goes for the video tapes that were made of the initial ATF 'assault' at the front door. All three tapes at the initial point that would show who fired first(Davidians say that Mr. Koresh went to the door and after a brief talk, a SINGLE shot was fired from outside) are blank (again, admitted in the hearings).

3: Charles Schumer. Was the hearing neutral? I think everyone who has seen the tapes about the hearings agree that Mr. Schumer wasnt neutral in any point. He even tried to argue that flashbang (or flashpack as he called them) arent lethal with an officer of an USMC reserve!

4: FBI used no explosive ordnance. Yet, unexpended flashbangs and expended CS grenades were found from the scene.

5: The crime scene was completely destroyed without investigation (that comes from the Texas Rangers that were there).

6: Bulletholes in the bodies + the FLIR tapes that the supposed (I havent looked up if the guy really invented FLIR, that' why I say 'supposed.) FLIR inventer looked and confirmed that there was automatic fire fired to the only remaining exit after the fire had erupted.

7: Choppers didnt shoot. Yet, there was lots of bulletholes in the roof. And there is some photos that show a mounted machinegun on the chopper (which shouldnt be there according to FBI). Also, the FLIR footage apparently shows shots fired from an hovering chopper.

And there's much more that I cant remember atm. But like I said, I just want to hear what ppl here think about it? Was it a revenge from the government part for the 4 agents killed? Was it the Davidians that torched themselves? Was it one gun-ho agent that fired first and started the whole siege?

[Aramike]

I think Waco was a result of a gross mishandling by the Justice Department. I think they did indeed torch themselves but it was unneccessary.

I don't believe there was any real cover-up. The problem with large scale cover-ups is that they are damned-near impossible to perpetuate. Besides, if they were able to successfully do so, why then make it obvious that the government was incompetent? Why not just make it so the Feds come out smelling like roses?

As far as the evidence you're presenting, I'd like to see sources on some of it, to be honest. Conspiracy theorists often present "evidence" that is either taken out of context, spun, or simply non-existant. A great example to this is (going back to 9/11) the suggestion that non-commercial aircraft hit the towers due to windows not being visible in video or photographs taken of the planes approaching. This claim ignores the fact that distance and velocity would be too great for most cameras to be able to resolve the windows - oh, and the fact that pieces of the plane's fuselage were found ... windows and all.

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by Aramike

As far as the evidence you're presenting, I'd like to see sources on some of it, to be honest. Conspiracy theorists often present "evidence" that is either taken out of context, spun, or simply non-existant. A great example to this is (going back to 9/11) the suggestion that non-commercial aircraft hit the towers due to windows not being visible in video or photographs taken of the planes approaching. This claim ignores the fact that distance and velocity would be too great for most cameras to be able to resolve the windows - oh, and the fact that pieces of the plane's fuselage were found ... windows and all.

Watch the documentaries Waco: The Rules of Engagement and WACO: New revelations (both on Youtube). Both have footage from the hearings where FBI/ATF say they have lost evidence or that they dont know what happened to said evidence.

Honestly, I was one of the 9/11 Government did it guys in the past, but I figured it was just too big of an operation to be made without anyone noticing. Thats when I ordered both WACO documentaries.

But just to note, the chopper photo with MG mounted is one photo. It doesnt show anything that would be recognised as if the chopped would be one that was used at Waco, but then again, we never know.

Also, the flashbangs being found isnt (AFAIK) 100% confirmed on the documentaries, but the person who brought up there being flashbangs did say that he could've brought live FB's to show, but he though it would've been too dangerous (using common sense, these would've been Fb's with pin's pulled off, just not detonated).

[Highbury]

Originally Posted by Aramike

If someone wanted to blow up the WTC, and was able to strategically place explosives in areas that would achieve this effect, why the hell bother to fly planes into the buildings?

Hard statement to argue, but maybe because they wanted a bigger "show". The conspiracy theorists always point to the document "Project for the New American Century" which was written by several people in the Bush administration. It contained the passage: "Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event––like a new Pearl Harbor" (sources 1 2) which conspiracy theorists claim is the seed of a self inflicted attack to empower the Government to make the changes they desired...

I am on NEITHER side. I see some merit in what some of the conspiracy theorists say. They do have too many fruitcakes on their side which hurts credibility badly. But at the same time there are some things that simply can't be explained to me.

I have watched all of the video. Yes they do 100% look like controlled detonations. None more so then WTC7. But even the towers, you certainly see what looks like detonations etc. This then begs the question, even with the state of technology in 2001, did they really think such a huge, televised event would not be scrutinized? That in itself makes it seem absurd.. but damaged buildings simply don't fall that way..

All I can say is I have no idea what really happened. I suspect very few really do. Certainly nobody posting on the internet about is has all of the answers and is just guessing, or at worst making crap up to support what they truly believe. That goes for people on both sides.

[Torpex752]

Well at least the name calling stopped...

Great post Highbury!

All I was doing was showing that there was new evidence, period. There are over 600 engineers who agree as I do that an independent investigation is deserved. But Why? Well.......

I love my country, and my fellow Americans. We have a great place here. I'll wave the American flag at my house, and I'll never let anyone put her down. Unfortunately, the distance between 'her" and the govt is gettin wider.
My Federal goverment....my sweet sweet educated, well managed, bullet proof integrity, honest to a fault, frugal, works for the people, never accepts a handout govt....They Claim they dont want inflation, recessions, wars, homeless, disease, and an american dream for everyone. They swear to uphold the constitution....Well....I'll say it again...I am for everey American citizen who pays taxes, and I'll tell ya..its getting more obvious every day that our govt isnt working for us the people.

I do not believe the GOVT did it. Could they? Absolutely. They kept the Manhatten project and the stealth bomber projects secret and there were thousands of people involved in a cross layered fashion in order to ensure secrecy. Its nothing new. But again I dont believe the Govt did it. I ask myself why then wont they look at the evidence? Fear, contraversey, riots, loss of faith in the govt, I dont know. But I do know if you look at how forensics are done, real world forensics, that was never done. I'll say it again, if there is nothing to fear, then why not? Answer that-because I cant find a single reason why not to allow these engineers access to the same evidence that the 9/11 comission used. What makes the US govt agencies that investigated this so infallible? When it comes to a federal project to build something federally funded, the feds set standards, but they leave the "HOW-TO" to the civilian industry! Its nothing earth shocking to do this, and in an investigation that now has received over 40% of the American people to doubt the answer, I say let someone else look at this. If they come to the same conclusion as the 9/11 comission then so be it. So I guess I'm different, I question things like this of a mechanical nature. I am curious about things like this that have 2 different angles, and possible outcomes. On top of it i worked for the US GOVT for 20 years, I dont believe that our govt is infallable.


Who did it? I have my own personal beliefs. But you need to understand how the world economy, the federal reserve, and the whole mechanism on this planet is working. Proof? The end results are the proof, we are living in the proof right now. So I can see some things that are messed up, and that there is one common thread. Its indisputable, iron clad, and anyone who doesnt believe it is out of touch and needs something....Money. Anyone who believes that money doesnt rule the world, (hope I dont offend anyone, sorry if I do) but you need to wake up. Without it you can die, its a life giving thing.

So if I were to speculate who did it, I'd say group "A" financed it in conjunction with Group "B" the front guys, did it, and had several smaller groups subcontracted possibly oblivious to the end result. Its not that far from how corporations work. Its just bussiness.

But back to my first post...Its just information..why let it rattle your cage?
Why so defensive? Does a different belief crack your concrete so easily?
It doesnt rattle mine, I am sitting back watching and learning. I can see logic on both sides, believe it or not. Yet on my own front I am planning my future, fixing my 1970 K-20.

Frank

[Aramike]

I do not believe the GOVT did it. Could they? Absolutely. They kept the Manhatten project and the stealth bomber projects secret and there were thousands of people involved in a cross layered fashion in order to ensure secrecy.

I seriously doubt they could pull it off.

There's a huge difference in keeping under wraps secret developments which involve a very controlled group of people versus a completely public, national disaster.

Also, I doubt that, in today's world, a project on the scale of the Manhatten project could be kept under wraps.

[Torplexed]

I've searched for any references to this in this thread but haven't seen it. My apologies if I missed it. How do you rig up three HUGE buildings for detonation with nobody noticing? As far as I know it's a fairly intrusive act.

To set up buildings for demolition, the following needs to be done:

1. Selected structural members are pre-weakened.

2. Charges are mounted on the selected structural members.

3. Detonators are wired to the charges so that when they detonate in the proper sequence the structure collapses in such a way that debris is confined to a relatively small area.

This cannot be done overnight, nor can it be done without leaving traces that people using the buildings notice, whether it be damage to walls or that the carpet has been replaced.

I've read some wild theories that the charges were planted when the WTC was built in the early 1970s. That's some incredible foresight on somebody's part, not to mention they went unnoticed and unmaintained for almost 30 years and worked like a charm.

[Torpex752]

Hey Torplexed!

I read official reports, and testamonies from people who worked in the towers that they were being "renovated" floor by floor on different floors for months before 9/11. More information, like a huge puzzle with its pieces scattered all over the place, it takes time to gather it and a clear mind, no preconceived notions.

I thought I'd add this link to a site I just found...glad I'm not the only X-Military who finds this mess a mess.

http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/

Frank