unsinkable subs need fixing

here is a porpoise class sub i just put 8 torpedos into her and visually she shows damage but even with 3 huge open holes in the hull it wont sink or even list!

http://gallery.filefront.com/keakar//1190378/

somehow this needs to be fixed and im sure its the same "bug" that causes most of the ship to ship collisions to not cause damage as well.


PS - its not just the porpoise its every single sub in the game, (US, GE, and IJN) the sen toku was made sinkable only by turning a freighter into a sen toku not the actual sub itself


there is a mod that makes the sen toku sinkable but it did this by moddng a freighter into looking like a sen toku not the actual sub itself.

[peabody]

Originally Posted by WEBSTER

here is a porpoise class sub i just put 8 torpedos into her and visually she shows damage but even with 3 huge open holes in the hull it wont sink or even list!

http://gallery.filefront.com/keakar//1190378/

somehow this needs to be fixed and im sure its the same "bug" that causes most of the ship to ship collisions to not cause damage as well.


PS - its not just the porpoise its every single sub in the game, (US, GE, and IJN) the sen toku was made sinkable only by turning a freighter into a sen toku not the actual sub itself.

I have some AI subs that I made and they take FOREVER to sink. Sometimes it isn't that the won't sink, just that it take a loooooong time. I am almost sure the solution is in the Zon files but I know very little about those. So I would also be interested in any info you get on this.
I am not sure, I'll have to do a test when I get a minute, but I think Miners AI sinks a bit faster than mine, I'll look into it.
I also think we are talking about two different subs. I think you mean the ones that are 'standard' not modded. And that is part of the problem but not sure why.

Peabody

Originally Posted by peabody

I also think we are talking about two different subs. I think you mean the ones that are 'standard' not modded. And that is part of the problem but not sure why.

Peabody

well im assuming modded subs are cloned real subs or in the case of the sen toku i remember he said he had to use a freighters model to have it take damage and be sinkable.

the strange thing is the US and GE subs show visual damage but not the IJN subs so its like the game is telling it NOT to count physical damage from torpedos. the two stock IJN subs will slowly submerge out of sight after being torpedoed but they arent sinking they are submerging as a defensive manuver to escape the attack.

in the case of ships they also do NOT count hull damage from collisions but equipt. on deck will be destroyed (like torpedo tubes or DC racks) if that is hit directly by the bow which is why it seams the ship itself only gets damaged if it gets pushed underwater and floods.

here are the two little sub missions i was using as tests in case someone wants to play around with it to find out whats going on. http://files.filefront.com/Websters+.../fileinfo.html


and here is the walther sub after 8 torpedos hit her: http://gallery.filefront.com/keakar//1190395/

[peabody]

Originally Posted by WEBSTER

well im assuming modded subs are cloned real subs or in the case of the sen toku i remember he said he had to use a freighters model to have it take damage and be sinkable.

the strange thing is the US and GE subs show visual damage but not the IJN subs so its like the game is telling it NOT to count physical damage from torpedos. the two stock IJN subs will slowly submerge out of sight after being torpedoed but they arent sinking they are submerging as a defensive manuver to escape the attack.

in the case of ships they also do NOT count hull damage from collisions but equipt. on deck will be destroyed (like torpedo tubes or DC racks) if that is hit directly by the bow which is why it seams the ship itself only gets damaged if it gets pushed underwater and floods.

here are the two little sub missions i was using as tests in case someone wants to play around with it to find out whats going on. http://files.filefront.com/Websters+.../fileinfo.html


and here is the walther sub after 8 torpedos hit her: http://gallery.filefront.com/keakar//1190395/

As far as the subs go, there are basically 3 types of subs:

1. A cloned sub. Make a copy of a sub, remap ids and make a new sub that is playable. And that is it's purpose to make another playable sub with maybe a different 3D model. Make it a target it acts just like a regular playable sub.

2. Regular playable sub. Meant to be playable. Put it in a mission as a target, add waypoints and speed. It will start at the speed set in the mission editor, but slow to 0 because the propellers are not turning. You can't sink it. Surface beside the enemy, they will not shoot at you.

3. AI sub or as I called it in the other post modded sub. (maybe incorrectly causing confusion) This sub usually starts by being cloned so you don't affect the original. Once it is cloned, convert it to a ship. Put it in a mission as a target: It will try to evade your torpedos, you can sink it, if you surface it will shoot at you. Give it waypoints and speed and it will follow the waypoints and even change speeds if you set a different speed at a certain waypoint. In other words it acts like an AI Ship. This is the one you want to consentrate on if you want it sinkable, because this will sink, will give you renown, and show as a destroyed unit on your clipboard. The one problem and maybe someone can jump in with a "real" answer, is making it sink faster than it does. It sinks very slow with one or two torps in it, even though it show as destroyed. I have played with the zones a bit and can get an explosion when it is destroyed, more as an indication that it is destroyed not because I wanted a big explosion. I have also been able to make it sink a little faster. But not having much knowledge about the zones, I have not gotten it the way I want it yet.

The Sen Toku is a sub by itself, it is neither AI or playable, it is eye candy to put at a dock. To make it useable you either have to make it playable or AI. The way it is, well simply it is useless. Miner made an AI of this sub and it works very well. I think the reason it shows no damage is because it doesn't link to any 3D images of damage.

That is my input on the sinking of subs. I think it would probably be a waste of time to make a playable sub sink, it still won't move. Make it a ship and you get it all.

Just my 2 cents.

Peabody

Originally Posted by peabody

That is my input on the sinking of subs. I think it would probably be a waste of time to make a playable sub sink, it still won't move. Make it a ship and you get it all.

Just my 2 cents.

Peabody

well heres the thing, you will run into these things in the game sooner or later and they need to be sinkable or put them on the pier in dry dock as far as im concerned but if they are in the water they should be live targets and by that i mean truely sinkablle and recorded as such.

right now our hands are tied if we want a sub to sink another sub.

i tried a mod the other day rsrdc i think and it had a german sub to intercept and sink. i torpedoed it and it slowly sank, i then went on to patrol the whole area and managed to sink a couple of merchants later on then at the 12 hour mark when i finally got the message the sub was destroyed, it must have finally reached crush depth i guess and i completed the mission. now come on, 12 hours is rediculous lol.

a sub mission is a good mission but without real acting targets its like kissing your sister.

if it can be done like you say, then why hasnt someone made a true replacement for the two IJN subs that the game recognises as them? (not a freighter masked as a sub)

now there is two different things in play here because the two IJN subs were unsinkable long before other subs got to be that way so that solution is hidden inside patch 1.4 that changed something but the jap subs were fubar from day 1.

[Starforce2]

Someone amde a mission where an island was attacked by a large jap force, and they bombed this porpise for 3 hrs and it still was floating. It looked like swis cheese though...was rather silly..

[Starforce2]

Someone amde a mission where an island was attacked by a large jap force, and they bombed this porpise for 3 hrs and it still was floating. It looked like swis cheese though...was rather silly..

[peabody]

Originally Posted by WEBSTER

well heres the thing, you will run into these things in the game sooner or later and they need to be sinkable or put them on the pier in dry dock as far as im concerned but if they are in the water they should be live targets and by that i mean truely sinkablle and recorded as such.

right now our hands are tied if we want a sub to sink another sub.

i tried a mod the other day rsrdc i think and it had a german sub to intercept and sink. i torpedoed it and it slowly sank, i then went on to patrol the whole area and managed to sink a couple of merchants later on then at the 12 hour mark when i finally got the message the sub was destroyed, it must have finally reached crush depth i guess and i completed the mission. now come on, 12 hours is rediculous lol.

a sub mission is a good mission but without real acting targets its like kissing your sister.

if it can be done like you say, then why hasnt someone made a true replacement for the two IJN subs that the game recognises as them? (not a freighter masked as a sub)

now there is two different things in play here because the two IJN subs were unsinkable long before other subs got to be that way so that solution is hidden inside patch 1.4 that changed something but the jap subs were fubar from day 1.

Yes, 12 hours is ridiculous and needs to be fixed (I think in the .zon file). All I am saying is you are trying to fix the wrong subs. If you see a sub 'Moving' in the game as a target it is a ship. You can still leave the Type=200 so the game treats it as a sub, but the fact is, if you check the sim file you will see it is a 'ship' not a 'submarine'.

Take your test missions back into the mission editor, give the subs some speed and then use the external camera and you will see the propellers are not turning so they will eventually stop. So there are NO sub targets in the stock game because they will not move. All sub 'targets' are ships. But like I said if you leave the Type set to 200 the game will give you renown for sinking a sub.
So, my comment stands, don't waste your time making the stock subs sinkable because you can't use them as targets. They must be cloned and made into ships in order to sink or move.
Those are the ones you need to 'fix'. You will not run into subs in the game unless they are put there by a mod.
Even the Jap sub must be made into a 'ship' in order to move. I cloned the Sen Toku to make it playable as my very first mod, and if you set it as a target it will not move. So all subs must be a "freighter masked as a sub". The way to get renown for sinking a 'sub' is make it a ship but in the "Type=" leave it as 200 (a sub). And you ask "if it can be done like you say, then why hasnt someone made a true replacement for the two IJN subs that the game recognises as them?" Miner did it with the Sen Toku, the Japanese sub. (he also worked on the minisub but I don't remember if it got finished.)

Here is a portion of the cfg file:

[Unit]
ClassName=SSSenToku
3DModelFileName=data/Submarine/NSS_Sen_Toku/NSS_Sen_Toku
HumanPlayable=No
UnitType=200 Unit type 200 is submarine

Here is sinking it:



But here is what makes it work:



It is a ship, but to anyone playing the game, they see a sub, when they sink it, it shows as a sub (even though it does say "Ship sunk") so unless you look at the sim you don't know it is a "freighter masked as a sub".

So the problem is not that the stock subs won't sink, the problem is the stock subs won't move. They must be ships, and that is where the "time to sink" needs to be fixed, not on the stock subs.

Peabody

ok, i never tried it so i didnt know if i made a mission with subs and gave them waypoints and speed settings they wouldnt move?

they do have some speed when it starts and the 2 u-boats show wakes but they drift to a stop.

except the midget sub that is, it doesnt even start at speed so it must not have any control files in the game.

the sen toku doesnt have a wake but it will show as a type n/a ship destroyed when it hits crush depth, but it sinks fairly quickly once it goes under.

its definately screwy

ok here is the to do list

since sub "targets" must be created we cant use the subs in the game because they are playable and playable ships cant be "targets" either.

so to have "target" subs as an addition to the game AI and for use with the mission editor they must be cloned and converted freighters masked to be subs.

now assuming i got that part correct, i would need to pick a sub class thats not presently in the game so it avoids ship ID issues correct?

am i on the right path to create mission editor usable target subs? or am i all out of the box?