The biggest Liar?

BasilY · 02-10-09, 06:31 PM

I did some reading on uboat.net recently, and found a number of captains grossly over-estimates the number and/or tonnage of the ships sunk.

Here is one;
http://uboat.net/allies/merchants/ships/3388.html

"On 10 Dec, 1944, U-1202 reported in a radio telegram the sinking of four ships totalling 26000 tons from a convoy.
In fact, only the unescorted Dan Beard (Master William Robert Wilson) was hit at 13.55 hours by one torpedo in rough seas off Strumble Head, North Wales."

It's kinda hard to mistaken a single unescorted merchant ship for a convoy...

Uboat.net only list confirmed sinkings. Which make me curious:

Who claimed the most tonnage sunk? (Is it Kreshmer?)
Who claimed the most number of ships sunk?

AND

Who's the biggest liar? (claim a lot more than actual sinking).

Sailor Steve · 02-10-09, 07:29 PM

You've been doing the reading. You tell us!

Seriously, though, Blair in his American submarine book talks about the problems involved. A lot of the claims were exagerrated simply because the ID books were wrong, or a lot of ships looked like a lot of other ships, or the claimed ship didn't actually sink.

In most cases it wasn't lying so much as not knowing for sure what they were claiming. Still, I'd be curious to see what you find out.

Murr44 · 02-11-09, 04:24 AM

From what I've read here: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/annemar...ell/can4a.html Joachim Schepke had a tendency to overestimate his tonnage. According to Lawrence Paterson, Albrecht Brandi also did this.

Dread Knot · 02-11-09, 09:31 AM

You could also blame some of these discrepancies on Reichsfurher Goebbels. The German Propaganda Ministry had no compunction with pushing dubious claims. That's why the Ark Royal was sunk several times in her career before she really was.

Kapt Z · 02-11-09, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

A lot of the claims were exagerrated simply because the ID books were wrong, or a lot of ships looked like a lot of other ships, or the claimed ship didn't actually sink.

In most cases it wasn't lying so much as not knowing for sure what they were claiming. Still, I'd be curious to see what you find out.

Exactly!

Fighter pilots over claimed as well. Not suprising considering how crazy mass dog fights must have been. Before gun cameras I don't know how any of them kept track of what was going on.

BasilY · 02-11-09, 01:13 PM

http://uboat.net/allies/merchants/ships/3388.html

"On 10 Dec, 1944, U-1202 reported in a radio telegram the sinking of four ships totalling 26000 tons from a convoy.
In fact, only the unescorted Dan Beard (Master William Robert Wilson) was hit at 13.55 hours by one torpedo in rough seas off Strumble Head, North Wales."

It's kinda hard to mistaken a single unescorted merchant ship for a convoy...

Sailor Steve · 02-11-09, 02:57 PM

:rotfl:

I did say most, not all...

Jimbuna · 02-11-09, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BasilY

http://uboat.net/allies/merchants/ships/3388.html

"On 10 Dec, 1944, U-1202 reported in a radio telegram the sinking of four ships totalling 26000 tons from a convoy.
In fact, only the unescorted Dan Beard (Master William Robert Wilson) was hit at 13.55 hours by one torpedo in rough seas off Strumble Head, North Wales."

It's kinda hard to mistaken a single unescorted merchant ship for a convoy...

LOL

A Very Super Market · 02-11-09, 06:50 PM

The biggest liars are probably players like ourselves. Just how many times has the Hood been sunk already?!

McHibbins · 02-12-09, 03:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murr44

From what I've read here: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/annemar...ell/can4a.html Joachim Schepke had a tendency to overestimate his tonnage. According to Lawrence Paterson, Albrecht Brandi also did this.

Schepkes tendency to overestimate was well known as "Schepke-Tonnage" between the Cmdrs during WWII.

Murr44 · 02-12-09, 04:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kapt Z

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

A lot of the claims were exagerrated simply because the ID books were wrong, or a lot of ships looked like a lot of other ships, or the claimed ship didn't actually sink.

In most cases it wasn't lying so much as not knowing for sure what they were claiming. Still, I'd be curious to see what you find out.

Exactly!

Fighter pilots over claimed as well. Not suprising considering how crazy mass dog fights must have been. Before gun cameras I don't know how any of them kept track of what was going on.

A little off topic but the Luftwaffe had a very strict claims procedure. A kill had to be witnessed by 1 other person before it was recognized & confirmed by the claimant's Gruppenkommandeur. Unlike the RAF, RCAF, USAAF, etc. the Luftwaffe's policy was "one pilot, one kill"; if 2 pilots claimed the same kill they had to decide between themselves who would get credit. If they were unable to decide the Staffel was awarded the victory.

Jimbuna · 02-12-09, 07:49 AM

That's correct, but by the same token if joint claims were made and no overwhelming evidence was found to decide which claimant was actually responsible....kills were often halved ie divided equally.

Schroeder · 02-12-09, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BasilY

http://uboat.net/allies/merchants/ships/3388.html

"On 10 Dec, 1944, U-1202 reported in a radio telegram the sinking of four ships totalling 26000 tons from a convoy.
In fact, only the unescorted Dan Beard (Master William Robert Wilson) was hit at 13.55 hours by one torpedo in rough seas off Strumble Head, North Wales."

It's kinda hard to mistaken a single unescorted merchant ship for a convoy...

Could have been pure despair.
In Oct 1944 the U-Boats were really hard pressed by the allied. Maybe he needed some sort of success to not meet with some interrogators after coming back and be reagrded a coward (which was quite unhealthy in Germany by that time).

Kapt Z · 02-12-09, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murr44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kapt Z

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

A lot of the claims were exagerrated simply because the ID books were wrong, or a lot of ships looked like a lot of other ships, or the claimed ship didn't actually sink.

In most cases it wasn't lying so much as not knowing for sure what they were claiming. Still, I'd be curious to see what you find out.

Exactly!

Fighter pilots over claimed as well. Not suprising considering how crazy mass dog fights must have been. Before gun cameras I don't know how any of them kept track of what was going on.

A little off topic but the Luftwaffe had a very strict claims procedure. A kill had to be witnessed by 1 other person before it was recognized & confirmed by the claimant's Gruppenkommandeur. Unlike the RAF, RCAF, USAAF, etc. the Luftwaffe's policy was "one pilot, one kill"; if 2 pilots claimed the same kill they had to decide between themselves who would get credit. If they were unable to decide the Staffel was awarded the victory.

That makes sense, but still who knows in the chaos of combat. I've read many reports that claim 'blue' squadron shot down 12 'red' planes in engagement 'x'. Then you see 'red' squadron report 3 planes lost after the same engagement.

I always liked the story I read once about a RAF Spitfire pilot's comment to his CO after a fierce dogfight, "Well sir, I think I managed to scare a few of them as much as they scared me."

Personally, I've never had a shot fired at me in anger, so I'm willing to give those that have quite a pass. U-boat kaleun or fighter pilot.

bgey · 02-12-09, 10:38 AM

[quote=McHibbinsSchepkes tendency to overestimate was well known as "Schepke-Tonnage" between the Cmdrs during WWII.[/quote]

So, it's safe to say the regarded his reports rather Schepketical?

(could not resist...)

Benny

02-10-09, 06:31 PM	#1
BasilY Weps Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 359 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	The biggest Liar? I did some reading on uboat.net recently, and found a number of captains grossly over-estimates the number and/or tonnage of the ships sunk. Here is one; http://uboat.net/allies/merchants/ships/3388.html "On 10 Dec, 1944, U-1202 reported in a radio telegram the sinking of four ships totalling 26000 tons from a convoy. In fact, only the unescorted Dan Beard (Master William Robert Wilson) was hit at 13.55 hours by one torpedo in rough seas off Strumble Head, North Wales." It's kinda hard to mistaken a single unescorted merchant ship for a convoy... Uboat.net only list confirmed sinkings. Which make me curious: Who claimed the most tonnage sunk? (Is it Kreshmer?) Who claimed the most number of ships sunk? AND Who's the biggest liar? (claim a lot more than actual sinking). Last edited by BasilY; 02-11-09 at 01:17 PM.

02-10-09, 07:29 PM	#2
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	You've been doing the reading. You tell us! Seriously, though, Blair in his American submarine book talks about the problems involved. A lot of the claims were exagerrated simply because the ID books were wrong, or a lot of ships looked like a lot of other ships, or the claimed ship didn't actually sink. In most cases it wasn't lying so much as not knowing for sure what they were claiming. Still, I'd be curious to see what you find out. __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

02-11-09, 02:57 PM	#7
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	:rotfl: I did say most, not all... __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

02-11-09, 06:50 PM	#9
A Very Super Market The Old Man Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Deep in the Wild Canadian suburbs. Posts: 1,468 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	The biggest liars are probably players like ourselves. Just how many times has the Hood been sunk already?! __________________ The entire German garrison of Vanviken, right here in your thread!

02-12-09, 07:49 AM	#12
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 190,584 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	That's correct, but by the same token if joint claims were made and no overwhelming evidence was found to decide which claimant was actually responsible....kills were often halved ie divided equally. __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!

02-11-09, 04:24 AM	#3
Murr44 Grey Wolf Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 913 Downloads: 16 Uploads: 0	From what I've read here: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/annemar...ell/can4a.html Joachim Schepke had a tendency to overestimate his tonnage. According to Lawrence Paterson, Albrecht Brandi also did this.

02-11-09, 09:31 AM	#4
Dread Knot Ace of the Deep Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 1,288 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	You could also blame some of these discrepancies on Reichsfurher Goebbels. The German Propaganda Ministry had no compunction with pushing dubious claims. That's why the Ark Royal was sunk several times in her career before she really was.

02-11-09, 01:13 PM	#6
BasilY Weps Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 359 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	http://uboat.net/allies/merchants/ships/3388.html "On 10 Dec, 1944, U-1202 reported in a radio telegram the sinking of four ships totalling 26000 tons from a convoy. In fact, only the unescorted Dan Beard (Master William Robert Wilson) was hit at 13.55 hours by one torpedo in rough seas off Strumble Head, North Wales." It's kinda hard to mistaken a single unescorted merchant ship for a convoy...

02-12-09, 10:38 AM	#15
bgey Mate Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 57 Downloads: 18 Uploads: 0	[quote=McHibbinsSchepkes tendency to overestimate was well known as "Schepke-Tonnage" between the Cmdrs during WWII.[/quote] So, it's safe to say the regarded his reports rather Schepketical? (could not resist...) Benny