VIEW: Type IXCs are a death trap in late 42, early 43.

[RoaldLarsen]

I run with 100% realism setting and play DiD. With Type IXs, it seems D is VERY DEAD.

I've started 4 careers in IXC and IXC/40 boats. (Call them 'L', 'M', 'N' and 'W'. Three have been sunk (L, M and W). All three were sunk by aircraft. Two of these (M and W) were on their first patrol. These two were sunk on their second and first air attack, respectively. The other victim (L) was on its fifth patrol and had undergone 22 air attacks on its final patrol, as well as five other aircraft sightings that did not result in an attack. The surviving boat (N) was severely damaged by aircraft on its most recent patrol and just barely managed to limp back to port. M was sunk in late '42, L and W in March '43, and N was damaged in late February '43.

I'm not careless with my IX boats. I had two careers in IXBs with a total of 20 war patrols. Both Kaleuns retired unscathed. (One was my top ace with nearly 400kT sunk). My IXCs are spending 80%-90% of the time submerged. They come up only at night to recharge batteries and load externally stored torpedoes. In calm to moderate seas they run with decks awash to reduce dive time. The watch crews are rotated regularly to ensure that they are alert. They all have radar warning detectors and the most up-to-date batteries. When submerged I generally run at an average of 3 knots to conserve battery life and reduce recharging time.

Once the allies expand their air coverage, the slower dive times and longer battery recharge times seem to make type IXs more vulnerable to air attack than type VIIs. Their longer patrol routes expose them to more days subject to air patrols. (The 27 encounters that L had with aircraft on its last patrol all occurred before the boat even reached its designated patrol area off the Bahamas.)

Do any experienced Type IX Kaleuns have any suggestions about how to survive in a Type IX during the first half of '43? (I'm not interested in exploits like: "run at TC 1024 to reduce detection by aircraft.") When schnorkels become available, do they help?

[A Very Super Market]

Schnorkels are still pretty obvious, though they do extend your time under considerably, hydrophones don't go up to the air, and using them in broad daylight is basically sending out a flare for flyers, only blind. You can still survive, with a good RADAR detector, and quick reflexes, but don't expect it.

[Annatar]

I thought air attacks were pretty much turned off if you went above 256?
What TC is the best compromise between getting some good encounters with aircraft but without being at such a low compression that it takes days to finish a patrol?

[Kapt Z]

Originally Posted by Annatar

I thought air attacks were pretty much turned off if you went above 256?
What TC is the best compromise between getting some good encounters with aircraft but without being at such a low compression that it takes days to finish a patrol?

It doesn't take you days to finish a patrol?????

Wow. With work and family it normally takes me a week!

[HW3]

I have survived into late 44 with a IXD-2 by charging batteries 4 times a day. This reduces the time required to charge to about 1 hour at a time. This seems to reduce my chances of being detected alot. It also means that if I am detected and have to dive, I still have enough battery power left to stay under awhile.

[Keelbuster]

The beauty of the schnorkel is that you are already at PD, so if you detect radar signals, it's no big deal to get down to a safe 50m.

[RoaldLarsen]

Originally Posted by HW3

I have survived into late 44 with a IXD-2 by charging batteries 4 times a day. This reduces the time required to charge to about 1 hour at a time. This seems to reduce my chances of being detected alot. It also means that if I am detected and have to dive, I still have enough battery power left to stay under awhile.

Thanks.

I presume that at least one of the four times is during daylight hours.

I wonder why this approach reduces the chance of being detected. You are still surfaced 4 hours out of every 24, but now at least one of those hours is during daylight. I hadn't tried this approach because it seemed to me to increase the chance of being spotted.

Does anybody know if the game engine works in such a way that being surfaced for one two hour recharge makes you more likely to be spotted by aircraft than being surfaced for two separate one hour recharges?

[RoaldLarsen]

Originally Posted by Annatar

I thought air attacks were pretty much turned off if you went above 256?

That's why I never run on the surface with a TC greater than 32 in areas of enemy air operations.

Originally Posted by Annatar

What TC is the best compromise between getting some good encounters with aircraft but without being at such a low compression that it takes days to finish a patrol?

Depends mostly on the length (distance) of your patrol, and the proportion of time surfaced, I suppose. Assume an average speed of 11 knots surfaced, and 3 knots submerged, and 4 hours surfaced out of 24. That gives you about 190 km covered each day. An average air gap patrol for a Type VIIC is about 4,250km each way and another 1500km on station: about 10,000km in total. That's more than 50 days. If you want to complete this in less than one day of real time you will need to run an average TC of 64 or more. When you include time for low TC activities such as engagements, getting out of port, etc. you may need to average TC 128 for everything else, if you want to keep a patrol down to less than a day. You'll miss a number of aircraft encounters this way.

What I do is a bit different. Both my time surfaced and the TC I run at depend on whether I am in an area with enemy air coverage. In an area with enemy air coverage, I spend at least 20 hours submerged. I never run on the surface with a TC greater than 32, but I spend 12 hours of my submerged time running at TC 1024. Most of the rest of the sumerged time is at TC 32. This approach doesn't avoid many aircraft encounters, but does reduce the number of hydrophone contacts I make. I consider this a good outcome because there seems to be too many merchant ships in the game. This approach means a game day takes a little less than half an hour real time.

In an area with no enemy air coverage, I spend most of my time on the surface. I dive for periodic hydrophone checks. If I am just travelling to or from a patol area, my surfaced travel is at TC 1024. In a patrol area, I don't exceed TC 32.

[Penelope_Grey]

The best advice really I can offer is, try to cruise at at least 9 knots. Also, it pays to have a maxed out flakcrew because chances are you are going to need them

the big trick... use the 16km atmosphere. (if you aren't)

I think really that sometimes with the IX, depending on the plane, it pays to stay up on the surface, run at flank speed, and blast away at the incoming plane till it flies over you, then crash dive!

Some planes are on you before you can get under.

[BasilY]

Originally Posted by RoaldLarsen

I run with 100% realism setting and play DiD. With Type IXs, it seems D is VERY DEAD.

I've started 4 careers in IXC and IXC/40 boats. (Call them 'L', 'M', 'N' and 'W'. Three have been sunk (L, M and W). All three were sunk by aircraft. Two of these (M and W) were on their first patrol. These two were sunk on their second and first air attack, respectively. The other victim (L) was on its fifth patrol and had undergone 22 air attacks on its final patrol, as well as five other aircraft sightings that did not result in an attack. The surviving boat (N) was severely damaged by aircraft on its most recent patrol and just barely managed to limp back to port. M was sunk in late '42, L and W in March '43, and N was damaged in late February '43.

I'm not careless with my IX boats. I had two careers in IXBs with a total of 20 war patrols. Both Kaleuns retired unscathed. (One was my top ace with nearly 400kT sunk). My IXCs are spending 80%-90% of the time submerged. They come up only at night to recharge batteries and load externally stored torpedoes. In calm to moderate seas they run with decks awash to reduce dive time. The watch crews are rotated regularly to ensure that they are alert. They all have radar warning detectors and the most up-to-date batteries. When submerged I generally run at an average of 3 knots to conserve battery life and reduce recharging time.

Once the allies expand their air coverage, the slower dive times and longer battery recharge times seem to make type IXs more vulnerable to air attack than type VIIs. Their longer patrol routes expose them to more days subject to air patrols. (The 27 encounters that L had with aircraft on its last patrol all occurred before the boat even reached its designated patrol area off the Bahamas.)

Do any experienced Type IX Kaleuns have any suggestions about how to survive in a Type IX during the first half of '43? (I'm not interested in exploits like: "run at TC 1024 to reduce detection by aircraft.") When schnorkels become available, do they help?

I consider myself pretty good with IXC, my biggest enemy is the Hedgehog (usually after a convoy attack), not airplanes. I spend just enough time on the surface to recharge, not a second more. the snorkel is useful only to recharge in bad weather. Having your snorkel out in good visibility is a invitation to air attacks.

Don't forget to get radar warning ASAP.

[RoaldLarsen]

Originally Posted by BasilY

I consider myself pretty good with IXC, my biggest enemy is the Hedgehog (usually after a convoy attack), not airplanes.

YMMV, I guess. I haven't been sunk by a surface vessel outside of the Med since August 1940.

Originally Posted by BasilY

I spend just enough time on the surface to recharge, not a second more.

Ditto. I'm now wondering about splitting recharging into two or more sessions.

Originally Posted by BasilY

the snorkel is useful only to recharge in bad weather. Having your snorkel out in good visibility is a invitation to air attacks.

But in bad enough weather, the planes won't even be flying. In real life, using the snorkel in bad weather was very trying for the crew. Seems like the snorkel is of limited value. (And when I get it, I won't be running at more than 6 knots with snorkel raised. It would break off if you went faster. An added bonus is that this should make it harder to be detected.)

Originally Posted by BasilY

Don't forget to get radar warning ASAP.

Always. However, it seems to help me avoid being bombed only about 1 time in 8.

[RoaldLarsen]

Originally Posted by Penelope_Grey

The best advice really I can offer is, try to cruise at at least 9 knots.

Thanks, Penelope. I'm already doing that almost all the time.

Originally Posted by Penelope_Grey

the big trick... use the 16km atmosphere. (if you aren't)

I think I may need a new rig to run that.

Originally Posted by Penelope_Grey

Also, it pays to have a maxed out flakcrew because chances are you are going to need them...

I think really that sometimes with the IX, depending on the plane, it pays to stay up on the surface, run at flank speed, and blast away at the incoming plane till it flies over you, then crash dive!

Perhaps. A problem is that it takes a certain amount of time to identify the plane. This time delays your crash dive. So, if it is the wrong type of plane, you are too late. I think you need to make it an all or nothing policy. Is there really enough time to crash dive after the first pass and be down before the second pass?

I had one skipper who used to stay up and fight it out with planes. After losing a few flak crews and taking severe damage, he changed his mind.

Originally Posted by Penelope_Grey

Some planes are on you before you can get under.

Yeah. Those account for most of my fatalities.

[Penelope_Grey]

Well you can tell by the engine noise, if the engine noise is high pitched its fast and its going to be on you before you can Crashdive..... If the engine noise is low pitched then you have a chance to get under... low pitched noise = something big with plenty of bombs.

The beauty about the 16k atmosphere is you get more time to respond.... if you run at the standard 8 then you only get the full 8km visibility if the weather is perfect.

So say the conditions are Clouds, partial. Wind, 2m/s. Rain, none. Visibility, unlimited. With the 8km you will see for just under 8km

with the 16k mod those condition will give your watch crew visibility to well over 15km away. Which makes a big difference....

Lets say the conditions are clouds, partial. Wind, 2 m/s. Rain, none. Visibility, moderate.

You are running 8k... the farthest with that your crew will be able to see is about 5km... which means the plane will be on top of you before you can blink.

Now what I suggested earlier... Id on't mean stay up till the plane is shot down. I mean, man your flak guns, get them all firing at medium range targeting any plane... the plane will dive on you, as its diving on you, you are launching up a hail of bullets at it, that will make its accuracy wobble a little bit... once it flies over you, it then has to fly off turn round and come back... this is your chance! Crashdive here! Before you take any more damage.

IX's are slow Crashdivers... but... with the 16k mod, they might just about get under in time. At least... thats my experiences both from gameplay and testing.

[Tronics]

Once allied air cover becomes a problem I run full or flank diesels on the surface when I'm doing battery charging runs so that when the plane does appear, and it will if your cruising across the Biscay, I have a fairly decent chance at crash diving and getting deep enough so that the bombs do minimal damage.

As for the radar detectors, I don't put much stock in those, and I prefer to do batter charge runs during the extremely early morning hours or late at night so my watch crew gets the benefit of some twilight to see incoming enemy planes as soon as the radar detector picks them up, so that I can get a fast start on a crash dive.

[RoaldLarsen]

Originally Posted by Penelope_Grey

Well you can tell by the engine noise, if the engine noise is high pitched its fast and its going to be on you before you can Crashdive..... If the engine noise is low pitched then you have a chance to get under... low pitched noise = something big with plenty of bombs.

Good tip, thanks.

Originally Posted by Penelope_Grey

The beauty about the 16k atmosphere is you get more time to respond.... if you run at the standard 8 then you only get the full 8km visibility if the weather is perfect.

So say the conditions are Clouds, partial. Wind, 2m/s. Rain, none. Visibility, unlimited. With the 8km you will see for just under 8km

with the 16k mod those condition will give your watch crew visibility to well over 15km away. Which makes a big difference....

Lets say the conditions are clouds, partial. Wind, 2 m/s. Rain, none. Visibility, moderate.

You are running 8k... the farthest with that your crew will be able to see is about 5km... which means the plane will be on top of you before you can blink.

Yeah, I understand the advantage of the 16k mod. It's a pity that it takes a mod to allow your crew to react as they might have done IRL.

For me the question is whether my computer can handle the 16k mod. I think I have the processor and RAM (P4 2.8GHz, 3GB), but my graphics card is a lowly ATI RADEON 9600 with only 128MB. Anbyody know whether this can handle the 16k atmosphere mod?

Originally Posted by Penelope_Grey

Now what I suggested earlier... Id on't mean stay up till the plane is shot down. I mean, man your flak guns, get them all firing at medium range targeting any plane... the plane will dive on you, as its diving on you, you are launching up a hail of bullets at it, that will make its accuracy wobble a little bit... once it flies over you, it then has to fly off turn round and come back... this is your chance! Crashdive here! Before you take any more damage.

IX's are slow Crashdivers... but... with the 16k mod, they might just about get under in time. At least... thats my experiences both from gameplay and testing.

Understood. I was wondering whether there was sufficent time to complete a crash dive between passes. From your answer I take it there is.