Demise of British tank industry foretold admitted - Page 2

UnderseaLcpl · 12-31-08, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lurchi

The Spitfire & Mosquito with Merlin engine?
How about the 15inch Mk. I gun and the Spearfish torpedo also Trafalgar submarines?

I think the Brits (or Europe) just don't boast so much - that doesn't mean that there is no adequate technology available ...

Fair enough. But I'd take a DB601 over a Merlin anyday. Or a Junkers Jumo, or a BMW 004. Kudos to the Brits, though for their part in the Avro-Lycoming turbine

Quote:

Originally Posted by A Very Super Market

I thought the Challenger 2 was a fine tank. And the Centurion. Sea Harriers are the only successful VTOL aircraft in history.

Firstly, Sea Harriers are most certainly not the only successful VTOLs, by which I assume you mean VTOL fixed-wing aircraft. The Yakolev Yak-38 Forger and AV8-B Harrier II both out-class it. The V-22 Osprey is another successful design, despite the extraordinarily inefficient development process. The whole reason that some British vessels are equipped with "ski-jumps" is because the Sea Harrier could not provide adequate lift capability in vertical take offs. A problem that the aforementioned examples lack. It's a superb plane, make no mistake, but it isn't the only one, and it isn't the best.

As far as the Challenger and Centurion go, both are outmoded in terms of the modern first-world MBT. They did, admittedly, outclass the U.S.'s remarkably terrible M60 and variants thereof, but they lacked the quantity, ease of manufacture, and ruggedness of the equivalent area Soviet tanks, especially considering the manufacturing capabilities of the U.K. Both are inferior to the Leopard 1, and the M1 abrams, so while they may be decent tanks, I'd hardly consider them a credit to the British armour legacy.

Oberon · 12-31-08, 07:05 AM

Hmmm, I wouldn't say we're the only industry in Europe that knows how to build guns. The German tank industry certainly hasn't lost its potency over the years. The Leopard II MBT is a fine piece of kit.
What the problem is, is our governments inept handling of budget and a culture of want want, give give. People expect something for nothing, and when you couple that up with widespread back-pocketing at the top, then there's not a great deal left to put into the budget.
It's all red-tape, fat cats and mismanagement.
Take a look at the Astute, how badly behind schedule she was until they turned the management upside down and shook it until all the crap fell out.
Besides, these days, war is a different creature, as that article mentioned, we're after fast, light but tough infantry carriers, not heavy main battle tanks because our enemy doesn't run around in a T-90 but on the back of an assault bike with an RPG launcher. Governments tend to have the attitude now that 'The Cold War is over' 'We don't need to worry about big weapons such as tanks and aircraft carriers any more'. At this point in time, they're right, an aircraft carrier is not much use against an insurgent, it won't prevent a suicide bomber from blowing up a marketplace, but I just get this horrible feeling it'll be the '20s all over again one day, when we'll suddenly realise that we've been caught with our trousers around our ankles and we'll have to run to catch up. :hmm:

Lurchi · 12-31-08, 07:23 AM

The RR Merlin and the DB 600 series remained very close through the wars. Noone would talk of the P-51 if it wasn't mated with the Merlin engine which finally made it the dominant Long-range escort fighter. The Spitfire along with the 109 were the only fighters in production through the whole war and being able to remain in the top league (the 109 fell back however, as it wasn't able to cope with additional weight as good as the Spit).

You always find a fighter which is better than the Spit in a certain way. In overall performance it is still a remarkable plane and remained the most-feared by the pilots of the Luftwaffe through the whole war. Every german pilot swore it was a Spitfire which downed him even if it was a Hurricane or a P-xx ...

The AV-8B is pretty obviously based on the successful british Harrier design, which is far superior to the crappy und pretty uncapable Yak-38 Forger. The latter was a pilot killer and went out of service pretty soon. Maybe you meant the Yak-141 - its supersonic replacement, a probably very potent plane but sadly it didn't make it into the fleet after the soviet Breakdown.

About tanks: I think the 105mm L7 gun was also of british origin? It was some sort of standard gun - certainly not because it was a bad weapon.

Another thing which comes to my mind is the Tornado bomber which was probably the best in its class when it came into service and is still able to deliver its punch today ...

Biggles · 12-31-08, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

And Skybird wonders why we spend so much on defense. No one is left to watch our back, and if we fall, Europe falls harder and faster. Maybe that is why he harps on our credit issues. He knows what happens if we go down.... Then again....

And if we fall, you fall...so we basically have to help eachother out eh?

SUBMAN1 · 01-01-09, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biggles

And if we fall, you fall...so we basically have to help eachother out eh?

You can keep on believing that, but when Rhumsfield told you back at the start of the Iraq war that we can go it alone if the Brits didn't want to help, he was serious.

So to squash your fantasy, we are a bit isolated from Europe and have had to take care of ourselves way over here. The point being is if you fall, we will still be here.

-S

Biggles · 01-01-09, 01:33 PM

No reason to start howling over this...time will tell if any of us are right or wrong...

[edit] Although, I think that if Europe collapses, we will all be dead and gone before that...it certainly won't happen in the recent future.

SUBMAN1 · 01-01-09, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biggles

No reason to start howling over this...time will tell if any of us are right or wrong...

[edit] Although, I think that if Europe collapses, we will all be dead and gone before that...it certainly won't happen in the recent future.

Well, if you believe the CIA reports with China's rise to power, Europe doesn't fair too well by 2020-2025. You will be left with 3 major powers - USA, China, India. Europe fades into obscurity and insignificance.

There is a thread on that in this GT forum somewhere.

-S

Biggles · 01-01-09, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biggles

No reason to start howling over this...time will tell if any of us are right or wrong...

[edit] Although, I think that if Europe collapses, we will all be dead and gone before that...it certainly won't happen in the recent future.

Well, if you believe the CIA reports with China's rise to power, Europe doesn't fair too well by 2020-2025. You will be left with 3 major powers - USA, China, India. Europe fades into obscurity and insignificance.

There is a thread on that in this GT forum somewhere.

-S

Thing is, I don't.

A Very Super Market · 01-01-09, 01:45 PM

Europe as a continent is just as powerful as China or India. Other than the rather inconsequential Balkans, I think most of Europe wouldn't mind morphing into a huge entity. And Europe is probably more stable than the US, India, China and Russia. Its population growth has stabilized. India at its current rate will surpass China's population in a matter of years, but nearly half of India is starving even today. US soil is being unfairly pressured by horribly inefficient farming methods, and China as well.

antikristuseke · 01-01-09, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biggles

No reason to start howling over this...time will tell if any of us are right or wrong...

[edit] Although, I think that if Europe collapses, we will all be dead and gone before that...it certainly won't happen in the recent future.

Well, if you believe the CIA reports with China's rise to power, Europe doesn't fair too well by 2020-2025. You will be left with 3 major powers - USA, China, India. Europe fades into obscurity and insignificance.

There is a thread on that in this GT forum somewhere.

-S

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAA...wait, you are serious, let me laugh harder.

SUBMAN1 · 01-01-09, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by antikristuseke

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAA...wait, you are serious, let me laugh harder.

I guess you guys are booming over there economically then. Not!! You guys always head down faster than we do, but the problem is, your ability to rebound is not there. Noticed that lately?

Anyway, I don't make the news, I just report it. The CIA however is typically not wrong in cases like this, but believe what you want to believe. Something tells me that you will be believing on faith alone this time....

-S

PS. I guess Christmas tree sales are still holding steady in Europe, though Germany is looking to take a massive beating at over 3%!
http://www.straitstimes.com/Breaking...ry_315374.html

FIREWALL · 01-01-09, 01:59 PM

You bunch a girls. Oh ! lets not offend the Brits !

Hell ! They can't even build a proper loo and they know it.

They need to fight their corupt over self serveing politicians like the rest of us and take their country back.

Biggles · 01-01-09, 02:01 PM

I (mostly) believe in facts that comes from neutral soruces. Since CIA is a part of the United States Gov. I would take any reports they have about China with a pinch of salt...

Again, that's me.

SUBMAN1 · 01-01-09, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biggles

I (mostly) believe in facts that comes from neutral soruces. Since CIA is a part of the United States Gov. I would take any reports they have about China with a pinch of salt...

Again, that's me.

I think the only way to stop China from becoming a viable rival to the US is nukes. And since that isn't going to happen, then I have to believe it.

India - same story.

-S

Biggles · 01-01-09, 02:05 PM

Well, I don't really see a problem with the US having some competiton out there in the big world...as long as it won't end with nukes, but as you say, that ain't gonna happen...

01-01-09, 01:33 PM	#21
Biggles Silent Hunter Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Sweden (I'm not a Viking...) Posts: 3,529 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	No reason to start howling over this...time will tell if any of us are right or wrong... [edit] Although, I think that if Europe collapses, we will all be dead and gone before that...it certainly won't happen in the recent future. __________________ Last edited by Biggles; 01-01-09 at 01:36 PM.

01-01-09, 01:45 PM	#24
A Very Super Market The Old Man Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Deep in the Wild Canadian suburbs. Posts: 1,468 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Europe as a continent is just as powerful as China or India. Other than the rather inconsequential Balkans, I think most of Europe wouldn't mind morphing into a huge entity. And Europe is probably more stable than the US, India, China and Russia. Its population growth has stabilized. India at its current rate will surpass China's population in a matter of years, but nearly half of India is starving even today. US soil is being unfairly pressured by horribly inefficient farming methods, and China as well. __________________ The entire German garrison of Vanviken, right here in your thread!

01-01-09, 01:59 PM	#27
FIREWALL Eternal Patrol Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: CATALINA IS. SO . CAL USA Posts: 10,108 Downloads: 511 Uploads: 0	You bunch a girls. Oh ! lets not offend the Brits ! Hell ! They can't even build a proper loo and they know it. They need to fight their corupt over self serveing politicians like the rest of us and take their country back. __________________ RIP FIREWALL I Play GWX. Silent Hunter Who ???

01-01-09, 02:01 PM	#28
Biggles Silent Hunter Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Sweden (I'm not a Viking...) Posts: 3,529 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	I (mostly) believe in facts that comes from neutral soruces. Since CIA is a part of the United States Gov. I would take any reports they have about China with a pinch of salt... Again, that's me. __________________

01-01-09, 02:05 PM	#30
Biggles Silent Hunter Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Sweden (I'm not a Viking...) Posts: 3,529 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Well, I don't really see a problem with the US having some competiton out there in the big world...as long as it won't end with nukes, but as you say, that ain't gonna happen... __________________

12-31-08, 07:05 AM	#17
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	Hmmm, I wouldn't say we're the only industry in Europe that knows how to build guns. The German tank industry certainly hasn't lost its potency over the years. The Leopard II MBT is a fine piece of kit. What the problem is, is our governments inept handling of budget and a culture of want want, give give. People expect something for nothing, and when you couple that up with widespread back-pocketing at the top, then there's not a great deal left to put into the budget. It's all red-tape, fat cats and mismanagement. Take a look at the Astute, how badly behind schedule she was until they turned the management upside down and shook it until all the crap fell out. Besides, these days, war is a different creature, as that article mentioned, we're after fast, light but tough infantry carriers, not heavy main battle tanks because our enemy doesn't run around in a T-90 but on the back of an assault bike with an RPG launcher. Governments tend to have the attitude now that 'The Cold War is over' 'We don't need to worry about big weapons such as tanks and aircraft carriers any more'. At this point in time, they're right, an aircraft carrier is not much use against an insurgent, it won't prevent a suicide bomber from blowing up a marketplace, but I just get this horrible feeling it'll be the '20s all over again one day, when we'll suddenly realise that we've been caught with our trousers around our ankles and we'll have to run to catch up. :hmm:

12-31-08, 07:23 AM	#18
Lurchi Planesman Join Date: May 2005 Location: Wilhelmshaven, Germany Posts: 181 Downloads: 35 Uploads: 0	The RR Merlin and the DB 600 series remained very close through the wars. Noone would talk of the P-51 if it wasn't mated with the Merlin engine which finally made it the dominant Long-range escort fighter. The Spitfire along with the 109 were the only fighters in production through the whole war and being able to remain in the top league (the 109 fell back however, as it wasn't able to cope with additional weight as good as the Spit). You always find a fighter which is better than the Spit in a certain way. In overall performance it is still a remarkable plane and remained the most-feared by the pilots of the Luftwaffe through the whole war. Every german pilot swore it was a Spitfire which downed him even if it was a Hurricane or a P-xx ... The AV-8B is pretty obviously based on the successful british Harrier design, which is far superior to the crappy und pretty uncapable Yak-38 Forger. The latter was a pilot killer and went out of service pretty soon. Maybe you meant the Yak-141 - its supersonic replacement, a probably very potent plane but sadly it didn't make it into the fleet after the soviet Breakdown. About tanks: I think the 105mm L7 gun was also of british origin? It was some sort of standard gun - certainly not because it was a bad weapon. Another thing which comes to my mind is the Tornado bomber which was probably the best in its class when it came into service and is still able to deliver its punch today ...