A few questions about the game

[smack]

Hello everybody,

I am planning to purchase the game, because I feel it is much better than Sub Command and it has way more realism added to it. I am very excited about it and wanted to ask a few questions:

1. When you stop the Submarine, does the propeller stop or it keeps rotating like in Sub Command? I found that unrealistic and irritating.

2. Do you have any control on the bow/stern planes? Another thing that should have been added earlier.

3. Do you have any control on the ballast tanks? (Ex: Blow all the ballast from the forward tanks) I think should be a great addition if it is not in the game, maybe in the next patch.

4. Can you reverse the propellers? When you give the order for All Back 1/3 -> Emergency the propellers should reverse motion.

5. Can you communicate with allied platforms via the antenna or by other means?

6. Is the radio message floating wire longer? (In Sub Command it is very short)

7. Can you emergency dive the ship?




And now a few things I would like added hopefully in the next game:

I. Battle Stations mode (Click a button and the stations are with red light and crew is more alert)

II. 1st person option (Choose to See the rest of the crew and give them commands individually and wonder around the submarine and its compartments, ie. Not likely but its cool to dream lol)

III. Use morse code to communicate between platforms (It will have a guide in the sub on usage) and also via the antenna and to ask for help ect..

IV. Flags on the different platforms to point out origin.

V. Drills on the sub (the least drills you perform the worse the crew will be to able to manage situation/ optional selection from the Options Menu)

VI. "Disaster" Option (It would be an option selectable from the options menu where at any point during a mission or not depending on random selection, there will be a problem that would cause damage and needs repair)

VII. Abandon The Ship (An option selectable from the orders menu to evacuate the crew and scuttle the boat, the crew will be on rafts visible in the water and could make way points for them to reach to an allied platform or wait for one before debrief)





And these are a few off the top of my head... Sorry for the long writing, but I get passionate and visionary when it comes to submarine games and want them as realistic as possible.

Thank you for reading this long dream of mine. I hope you can answer the questions about the game since I am planning to purchase it in mid December.

Thank you folks!

[SandyCaesar]

1. It doesn't look like the prop ever stops; that wasn't fixed.

2. Nope, no ability to trim.

3. Yes, there is. Emergency blows are fun, if not practical, to perform. On the 688 (not sure about the others) there's the option to "Open" or "Close" the MBTs

4. Maybe in the LWAMI mod; unsure about stock.

5. Yes! You can put enemy platforms on the datalink with the antenna (receive with the floating wire), and let your friends handle some of the work. In fact, IIRC, some missions will have you finding and linking something so that the Ticos/Burkes can handle it.

6. Depending on the mod, sometimes.

7. No...no emergency flood. You can experiment with the MBT vent controls, but aside from that...

And as for the rest...that's Silent Hunter III/IV territory! It's be amazing to have, but it'll be the devil to code.

Other advice: be sure that you patch to 1.04, then get the LWAMI modification, available at Mr. Bill Nichols' site (www.subguru.com.) It fixes a number of problems and adds to the realism considerably. Beyond that, there's Alfa Tau and Reinforce Alert, both of which are currently the subject of intense discussion in the forum.

Oh, and before I forget: welcome aboard to DW, smack!

[smack]

Thank you SandyCaesar!

Well I am disappointed in that most of these simple things can be fixed. Like the propeller and floating wire ect.. I suppose it doesn't take that much code for it. As well is the ballast tanks and planes and emergency flood.

And as for the communication with other allied platforms, can you do that in missions or has to be multiplayer?


And my point is that it took them 4 years for a new game, why dont they take another 4-6 years and come up with a game as big as a few gigs (2-8) and fix all these problems add realism add more stations and controls of things along with every platform playable. It would be far better than getting a game out every year with fair improvements. I say to them, take your time and come up with a game that will change simulation for ever. Make it a few gigs and add everything in it. Even if its a bit buggy, create a few patches and fix those problems. Its the will power, not how hard it is to do. I hope they do something like that.

[kgsuarez]

Hi, smack. I've played both SC and DW. I think you will pleased with your purchase of DW. It is a great game that I have gotten a lot of fun from over the years.

I'll do my best to answer your questions.

1) I don't know, I haven't looked. There was some discussion about this on the forums once. I think the the conclusion we came to was that it is realistic for the propeller to continue turning. When you order all stop, what actually happens (in a real sub) is that the angle on the blades is adjusted so that they are not biting into the water to create thrust. The reasoning behind this was that the propeller shaft must remain in motion to prevent too much water from leaking in through the seals.

2) No. It's too bad really. Very few subsims have included this feature.

3) You can blow the tanks for an emergency surface like in SC. You can also open the MBT vents while on the surface to manually dive the ship, but I don't remember if this was already an option in SC or not. Unfortunately, no subsim I have ever played has given the player realistic control of the ballast tanks. Its a shame, because ballast is a very important aspect of submarine control.

4) Again, I am not sure. But according to what I referenced in No. 1, what would really happen is the propeller blades would shift to allow reverse thrust.

5) Kind of... they can communicate with you. If your antenna is raised you can receive information from allied platforms on the location of enemies.

6) I don't know. But, there is a mod available for DW called LWAMI that makes adjustments to various sensors and weapons in the game. With the LWAMI mod the floating wire is the correct (real world) length.

7) No, but I would imagine that this is not that much of a realism issue. Modern nuclear submarines are meant to stay submerged 99% of the time so I would not be surprised if they don't even have an emergency dive procedure. Due to the advancement of detection technologies a modern submarine would be (hopefully) submerged long before there is any visual contact with another vessel. Either way, diving a modern boat is probably a complicated procedure with a lot of room for mistakes if it is rushed.

And now a few things I would like added hopefully in the next game

We all have our own lists like that. There are some independent developers creating subsims that will include a little more user input than in the past, so it will be a reality one day. We just have to be patient. Look around on the forums, there is a section for "Indie SubSims" that has a bunch of info on these games. A few of them look very promising.

[smack]

kgsuarez, thank you for taking the time and answering my questions, I am really excited about it and can't wait to buy it.

The reason I asked about the propeller is that in reality the propeller stops moving and you become quiet, hence no rotating of propeller which means no moving parts and impossible to detect unless using active sonar. So it would have been better if it stopped, but I guess its not such a big deal. The reverse of the propellers is also something that could be made in a patch, its not a long code to write and as you mentioned, a current patch contains extension of the floating wire, so something to that extent.

The game seems way better than its predecessor, I can only imagine what will see in the next game. I went to subguru.com and saw many patches for DW, so hopefully then can make more that will fix these problems. The rest of our lists will hopefully become the future.

However I don't know many people playing sub simulators and is that a problem for the makers of the game? I mean compared to Flight Simulator which I have every version going back to the '90s people actually buy the game and its filled with so much realism that I wish could be applied to the Sub Simulators. The last Flight Simulator was like 15 Gigabites. Imagine what a sub sim will be with these parameters.

Anyway, thanks for the time and for the advice, I can't wait!

[MR. Wood]

If they would release a 15 gb dw or like it naval sim that would be sweet just think of the posibilitys real water depth harbors etc etc

[Molon Labe]

Originally Posted by smack

Hello everybody,

I am planning to purchase the game, because I feel it is much better than Sub Command and it has way more realism added to it. I am very excited about it and wanted to ask a few questions:

1. When you stop the Submarine, does the propeller stop or it keeps rotating like in Sub Command? I found that unrealistic and irritating.

Most subs always keep their props turning to keep the shaft seals from breaking, so that's really not a problem. But as has already been said, it's a fixed animation.[/quote]

2. Do you have any control on the bow/stern planes? Another thing that should have been added earlier.

3. Do you have any control on the ballast tanks? (Ex: Blow all the ballast from the forward tanks) I think should be a great addition if it is not in the game, maybe in the next patch.

Not in DW, but you might want to check out Dr. Sid's community subsim. Development is slow but steady, and it promises to be higher fidelity than DW in these areas--including manual control of the planes and some control over the ballast tanks.

5. Can you communicate with allied platforms via the antenna or by other means?

There's a datalink and an option for side chat. You can also script messages to be sent to platforms when certain events occur, if you're creative you can use that to send planned messages. There's a "COMSAT" mod out there that has an object specifically intended to be used this way.

7. Can you emergency dive the ship?

Not really. Shift+3 will send you to 300ft IIRC though, so there is a quick command available to do a quick dive, but nothing resembling the emergency drill (which really is a shame).

And now a few things I would like added hopefully in the next game:

I'm with you on the flags and casualty drills.

[Neptunus Rex]

Emergency Deep would be nice, and it's just not a depth order, it's a command phrase. it's one of those things that only the O.O.D or Capt will say.

When Emergency Deep is commanded, the Dive orders the plansman to take the boat to 150 feet, helmsman orders up 2/3 bell, Chief of the Watch will flood depth control tanks.

As a matter of fact, when coming up to periscope depth, if the OOD says anything other than "No close contacts" the ships control party will automatically take emergency deep actions without the actual command.

DW changes depth a little too casually.

[Castout]

About propeller animation not stopping when at full stop it's imo just a cosmetic faults.

Yes 3D models in DW are just for cosmetics because the real gameplay is played from the various stations. That's why we have the disable 3D option.

Don't be taken aback by cosmetic faults like this. DW is a great game with community mods that will make it even greater in terms of realism. Of course you cannot expect DW to be perfect even with the mods but hey there is nothing better than DW in its genre not now and not in the near future.

[smack]

I am not saying its not a good game. No game is perfect! Even the 15 Gigs of Flight Simulator could have bugs. What I am saying is that to make a simulation realistic, small things matter. And only the more experienced people play without the 3D. You get a lot of more realism of your surroundings with the 3D and detail is what matters. All of these could be fixed with a patch so its not a big deal. What I was basically saying is that small things matter and if simulation is to be a "simulator" it has to imitate reality, and turning propellers while a ship is STOPPED is not in reality true.

And also what Neptunus Rex said about the emergency dive. To have a good game means the realism level should be a top priority that includes graphics ect. So yes the propeller is important but no need to get obsessed with it since it can be fixed and I believe it must. How can you pretend to be silent when the propeller is still turning with the same speed as it was when you were going 25 kts?

Anyway more realism would be nicer in the next game. So far so good, can't wait to get it!

[Bubblehead Nuke]

DW is a good sensor sim. The longer I play it, the more I see why the Navy uses it. They are not concerned with shiphandling. DW is all about the sensors and the proper employment of said sensors. Granted, the sonar model is simplistic. The shiphandling model is beyond simplistic. But this is all known. We are using a cut down version of the NavSimEngine. Things like this are to be expected and honestly, we will never see improvements in this engine beyond the tweaks that we have already seen in prior patches. I would not expect major things like even the simple cosmetic fixes mentioned on this thread to be fixed.

Let me take a moment here and talk about the ComSubSim.

The Community Sub Sim should have MUCH higher standards as far as sound levels, controls, trim, and many, many, MANY other things. Things like Emergency Deep, Flooding, angles and dangles, trim control and serveral other physical aspects of ship hydrodyamnics & handling have been discussed and worked on.

If you know something about subs, Non-nuke OR nuke, then please contact Dr. Sid to have some input. I ask those who HAVE SERVED on subs to contribute some insight. Yes, you have to be cirmumspect. Yes, you have to search all over the internet to find examples and ideas to get a general point or concept across. I had to search far and wide but finally found a decent book (Concepts of Submarine Design by Cambridge Press is EXCELLENT reading BTW) to get a few points across in a way that is understandable. Yes, you have to obey the rules and not devulge classified material. But, if you can get a CONCEPT across, the rest (the data) can be created to make a balanced sim.

If you have not served, feedback is always welcome, but please understand what what you THINK you know is not always even close.

Case in point on this very thread. A stopped screw is NOT going to make you silent. In fact, it may make you more noisey in some circumstances. For the record, the shaft can sit ALL day stopped and not hurt a thing as far as the shaft seals are concerned. There are other consideration as to why we preferred to keep the shaft spinning, even if very slowly.

[smack]

Bubblehead Nuke thanks for the input, but how can a stopped propeller make you noisier? I have been on a submarine, the propeller stops because moving though the water creates sound that can be picked up by nearby vessels. It is called moving parts, when you have things moving in the water they emit sound. And its simple physics, how can the propeller spin and the sub not go forward? Its designed to propel the sub and when the sub stops, the screw should stop as well. Thats why submarines stop their engines when somebody is coming in their wash or behind the subamarine and then perform a Crazy Ivan just to be sure. The screws have to stop. Watch any movie with subs in it and you will see the propeler stops everytime the sub stops.

A stop device for application to an outboard marine engine to retain the propeller against rotation while the prop nut is being tightened or loosened. The device is T-shaped and includes side wings and a vertical leg. The wings have slots which permit the device to be slipped onto a tail plate located above the propeller. The leg extends downwardly between the blades of the propeller and engages the blades to prevent propeller rotation.

Thurst is made by faster and faster rotations, so how can a rotating propeller stop the submarine? Its like a bycicle, can you be at one place while turning the peddals? No.

And I dont expect them to be fixed, I expect a patch that fixes them since it is the only way, unless the developers start thinking outside of the box and use different code for some of these things, for a good code writer its not exactly a head scratcher.

[kgsuarez]

smack, the only submarines that can approach anything like total silence are diesel-electric boats. And even then it is difficult. Because, as you say, there are moving parts that simply must keep moving if the boat is going to stay within control.

The nuclear reactor on submarines cannot be turned off; it is always running. The only time it is turned off is when a boat is decommissioned and scrapped. Nuclear reactors produce a lot of heat and require water pumps to keep them within an optimum and safe operating temperature. Those pumps make noise. In addition, submarines require a lot of electricity. The generators that produce that electricity make noise, and lots of it.

Obviously, they try very hard to keep things quiet. For example, on a 688i, the aforementioned generators are sealed in an acoustically padded compartment, atop a lot of thick rubber and giant springs. The noise level in that compartment approaches 96 decibels. I don't know if this is accurate. I read about this in a fiction novel. Nevertheless, I think it at least helps to illustrate my point.

As far as a propeller spinning, but not moving the boat, it's simple. A lot of airplanes have what are called variable pitch propellers. The individual blades on the propeller can be adjusted so that the amount of "bite" they take out of the air is greater or less. If the angle of the blades was adjusted to a certain point, the blades would no longer be moving the water around them and the thrust would be gone. The propeller at this point is still moving through the water, but it is not causing as much of a disturbance as before, at least sound-wise.

Think of it as the transmission in a car. 2500 RPMs in 1st gear moves you at 25 MPH, but 2500 RPMs in 5th gear moves you at 50 MPH. And then, placing the gear shift in neutral and and revving up to 2500 RPMs doesn't move the car. The engine is moving at the same speed in these 3 configurations, but the speed is affected differently.

I'm not sure if I understand what you where talking about in regards to the Crazy Ivan. But, the reason a trailing sub would go to all stop in this situation is to avoid a collision.

I hope that helps explain it a little better.

[smack]

Crazy Ivan is when a sub is behind another sub, and the sub that is in front has difficulties detecting the sub behind; most of the times because the screw is breaking up the signal. The submarine in front banks to the left or to the right (also could complete a whole 360 dgs) that is done so the sonar can detect anybody behind it by turning hence the screw wont break any signal coming from behind. That is why subs that come in the wash of other subs (behind it) are virtually silent to the enemy because they are coming in behind the screws.

I hope you understand now.

Anyway enough about the propellers lol... I hold my opinion on that piece of graphics but its not important anyways.



Thank you for answering the qs in the first post guys, really helped me make my decision even more solid!

Originally Posted by smack

Hello everybody,

I am planning to purchase the game, because I feel it is much better than Sub Command and it has way more realism added to it. I am very excited about it and wanted to ask a few questions:

1. When you stop the Submarine, does the propeller stop or it keeps rotating like in Sub Command? I found that unrealistic and irritating.

2. Do you have any control on the bow/stern planes? Another thing that should have been added earlier.

3. Do you have any control on the ballast tanks? (Ex: Blow all the ballast from the forward tanks) I think should be a great addition if it is not in the game, maybe in the next patch.

4. Can you reverse the propellers? When you give the order for All Back 1/3 -> Emergency the propellers should reverse motion.

5. Can you communicate with allied platforms via the antenna or by other means?

6. Is the radio message floating wire longer? (In Sub Command it is very short)

7. Can you emergency dive the ship?




And now a few things I would like added hopefully in the next game:

I. Battle Stations mode (Click a button and the stations are with red light and crew is more alert)

II. 1st person option (Choose to See the rest of the crew and give them commands individually and wonder around the submarine and its compartments, ie. Not likely but its cool to dream lol)

III. Use morse code to communicate between platforms (It will have a guide in the sub on usage) and also via the antenna and to ask for help ect..

IV. Flags on the different platforms to point out origin.

V. Drills on the sub (the least drills you perform the worse the crew will be to able to manage situation/ optional selection from the Options Menu)

VI. "Disaster" Option (It would be an option selectable from the options menu where at any point during a mission or not depending on random selection, there will be a problem that would cause damage and needs repair)

VII. Abandon The Ship (An option selectable from the orders menu to evacuate the crew and scuttle the boat, the crew will be on rafts visible in the water and could make way points for them to reach to an allied platform or wait for one before debrief)





And these are a few off the top of my head... Sorry for the long writing, but I get passionate and visionary when it comes to submarine games and want them as realistic as possible.

Thank you for reading this long dream of mine. I hope you can answer the questions about the game since I am planning to purchase it in mid December.

Thank you folks!

Im no DW expert, but I own it and I have the feeling that you miss-understood the game a bit. Your questions are very...unrelated to DW. In this game, it doesnt matter if the screws are doing anything at all actually. The graphics are pretty bad, effects are rare and you should sit in front of the map or any sensor-screen all the time anyway. Not much time for graphicdetails ;o)

Why dont you try out the Demo? I cant give you a link, but Im sure google can.