Urban survival: How to defend against psychopaths

[FIREWALL]

Happy Holidays everyone

[Castout]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

@ NeonSamurai: Interesting list. I was not surprised to find how many of those apply to me, but pleasantly surprised to see how many did not. I feel better now.

It's normal to have a few of those they are not exclusive to the psychopaths they are just common in psychopaths.


The only thing that define a person psychopath is the complete absence of conscience. No remorse no guilt no empathy no conscience. And irrational overdone behaviors stemming from what he or she wants which he or she pursue with no conscience, no empathy, no guilt and no remorse. A psychopaths also an easy liar. Lying is second nature to them.

[the_tyrant]

Originally Posted by Castout

The only thing that define a person psychopath is the complete absence of conscience. No remorse no guilt no empathy no conscience. And irrational overdone behaviors stemming from what he or she wants which he or she pursue with no conscience, no empathy, no guilt and no remorse. A psychopaths also an easy liar. Lying is second nature to them.

That pretty much describes every politician
BTW, Castout's blog is quite interesting. if you haven't read it yet, go and have a look

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by NeonSamurai

I doubt most of you would meet the requirements to be a psychopath, but statistically I bet there are more than a few here.

What are the statistics?

Also this is not a self diagnosis kind of test (or one filled out by the subject) as psychopaths will lie.

I'm no psychopath - Oh, wait

Evading them is impossible, they are everywhere, and blend very well. Also I do not agree with your assertion that they take pleasure in causing suffering. One of the key components of psychopathy is shallow affect and emotions. Their emotional response tends to be flat to non existent (including to pleasure). So while they may find what they are doing amusing or entertaining, it is not pleasure in the conventional sense (that is sadism which is a sexual disorder).

How can they find things amusing or entertaining if they can't experience emotions?

So while they may find what they are doing amusing or entertaining, it is not pleasure in the conventional sense (that is sadism which is a sexual disorder).

Does that mean there are no sadistic psychopaths? That's a relief

Also, how do you know all these things? Are you a psychiatrist or something?

Psychopathic, WHOOP WHOOP.

[NeonSamurai]

Originally Posted by DarkFish

What are the statistics?

Estimates are about 1% of the general population, possibly higher. We have a reasonable idea of population % for the non-socialized/criminal type, but only very rough estimates for the socialized type.

How can they find things amusing or entertaining if they can't experience emotions?

Being entertained isn't exactly an emotion (neither is boredom) but more of a state of mind or level of arousal.

Does that mean there are no sadistic psychopaths? That's a relief

That would be debatable. Also sadism is technically a sexual dysfunction which means the person derives sexual pleasure from sadistic behavior. What I am more driving at is that psychopaths do not experience pleasure in the same way normal people do. So while we may call them sadistic due to behavior, I don't feel they are truely sadistic given how they seem to experience pleasure (at best they experience a very shallow version of pleasure, most don't seem to show it at all, at least in a way normal people would understand).

Also, how do you know all these things? Are you a psychiatrist or something?

Currently 4th year honors psychology student (career number 3) with plans to go on to clinical social work, though I have a lot of other experience in the field. I am pretty familiar with this particular condition, have met a few diagnosed psychopaths, and done a fair amount of reading on the subject in addition to courses that have dealt with the topic in varying levels of detail. I am also a cognitive science researcher (scholarship).

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by NeonSamurai

Currently 4th year honors psychology student (career number 3) with plans to go on to clinical social work, though I have a lot of other experience in the field. I am pretty familiar with this particular condition, have met a few diagnosed psychopaths, and done a fair amount of reading on the subject in addition to courses that have dealt with the topic in varying levels of detail. I am also a cognitive science researcher (scholarship).

Ok, then learn me a few things.

What is the difference between a psychopath and a psychotic?

A previous poster a psychopath was a person with no remorse or feeling. I thought that was more psychotic. I always thought that a psychopath suffered from a spectrum of abhorrent behaviours. And they can run from almost "normal" to the extreme and anywhere in between. This behaviour can be in response to some incident or trauma that was real or perceived.

However, a psychotic, may not have a contributing event or issue, they may just lack the (forgive the layman's terms) normal mental/emotional sets of checks and balances.

Like I said, I am the layest of laymen when it comes to this stuff.

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by NeonSamurai

Estimates are about 1% of the general population, possibly higher. We have a reasonable idea of population % for the non-socialized/criminal type, but only very rough estimates for the socialized type.

That's fairly much I'd say Good thing not all psychopaths are of the criminal, non-socialized kind then...

Being entertained isn't exactly an emotion (neither is boredom) but more of a state of mind or level of arousal.

Hmm okay.. if I understand you correctly, an emotion must be something like the result of a state of mind. As in, a normal person finds something amusing, so he gets happy? And psychopaths are capable of experiencing these state of minds, and can like or dislike those, but cannot experience the ensuing emotions?

How about love? Can psychopaths feel truly attracted to someone? Isn't love more like a primal instinct to ensure procreation? Or is it "just" an emotion?
And if they find a partner, do they choose her/him only because he/she can give some kind of advantage in life, or also because the psychopath likes her/his looks?

That would be debatable. Also sadism is technically a sexual dysfunction which means the person derives sexual pleasure from sadistic behavior. What I am more driving at is that psychopaths do not experience pleasure in the same way normal people do. So while we may call them sadistic due to behavior, I don't feel they are truely sadistic given how they seem to experience pleasure (at best they experience a very shallow version of pleasure, most don't seem to show it at all, at least in a way normal people would understand).

Hmm, so a psychopath can not be a sadist in the traditional meaning of the word, while it's not impossible for one to like torturing people? Thereby not gaining the pleasure a "normal" sadist does, but finding it, in your words, "amusing or entertaining" to torture their victims?

[NeonSamurai]

Originally Posted by Platapus

Ok, then learn me a few things.

What is the difference between a psychopath and a psychotic?

A psychopath is a type of condition. The main features are they lack standard emotions (referred to as shallow affect, where they can mimic them, but don't seem to really feel them), have no senses of guilt or remorse (emotions again), and also do not seem to feel anxiety or fear. They also have zero empathy (kind of hard to empathize with people if you feel nothing). The often tend to be highly egocentric (self centered), and pathological liars. Because of all of this they have no trouble causing harm to others to get what they want, including using force and causing death.

Look over the PCL-R I gave, that has all the stuff we look for in the non-socialized aka criminal type of psychopath.

Now a psychotic is someone who has broken from reality in some way or another (delusions mostly). A person who hears voices or sees hallucinations would be a psychotic. The classic form of psychosis is schizophrenia. Also being psychotic does not necessarily mean you are a dangerous person or intend harm. Most psychotics are in fact harmless (on par with the average rates of criminality in the general public).

You may notice that common usage is totally backwards and has the two completely confused.

A previous poster a psychopath was a person with no remorse or feeling. I thought that was more psychotic. I always thought that a psychopath suffered from a spectrum of abhorrent behaviours. And they can run from almost "normal" to the extreme and anywhere in between. This behaviour can be in response to some incident or trauma that was real or perceived.

True psychopaths are that way from birth according to all the research (though people can show elements of psychopathic behavior without being real psychopaths). There are lots of people who have suffered horrendous abuse and neglect and did not become psychopathic

Originally Posted by DarkFish

That's fairly much I'd say Good thing not all psychopaths are of the criminal, non-socialized kind then...

Yes and no. These people are also equally destructive (and potentially as lethal if not more so if you look at the damage and death corporations can cause), just in different ways. They also tend to toxify the environment they are in for others.

Hmm okay.. if I understand you correctly, an emotion must be something like the result of a state of mind. As in, a normal person finds something amusing, so he gets happy? And psychopaths are capable of experiencing these state of minds, and can like or dislike those, but cannot experience the ensuing emotions?

It is really hard to say for sure what they feel. The information we have about it comes from some fMRI (functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging) studies of brain activity, and what research participants self report when interviewed (which being pathological liars and constant manipulators, you have to be very careful with) Boredom for example is not really an emotion (like love, happiness, sadness, etc) and neither is arousal. I would say that they do not experience the emotional aspects of arousal, or if they do its very different from normal people.

How about love? Can psychopaths feel truly attracted to someone? Isn't love more like a primal instinct to ensure procreation? Or is it "just" an emotion?
And if they find a partner, do they choose her/him only because he/she can give some kind of advantage in life, or also because the psychopath likes her/his looks?

I would say the answer is no. Attraction yes though, and they tend to be attracted to other psychopaths. But its kind of like two sharks, in that they will turn on each other in a heartbeat if it proves advantageous to one. Otherwise 'partners' they have are more targets of manipulation and exploitation (including sexual).

Hmm, so a psychopath can not be a sadist in the traditional meaning of the word, while it's not impossible for one to like torturing people? Thereby not gaining the pleasure a "normal" sadist does, but finding it, in your words, "amusing or entertaining" to torture their victims?

Again hard to really say for certain. Torturing someone would not make them happy, though they may find it gratifying doing so. Many though seem to be entirely indifferent to it, and often will calmly express incidents where they brutally killed someone and not show any arousal or excitement over it.


One key point though is that mental illness and personality disorders (psychopathy would be one), are not black and white, but exist on a continuum. This means that they can vary quite a bit in actual manifestation from one individual to another.

[Castout]

Originally Posted by the_tyrant

That pretty much describes every politician
BTW, Castout's blog is quite interesting. if you haven't read it yet, go and have a look

Not really it doesn't mean normal people would not make the morally wrong choices but the guilt must be there. Men are fallible psychopathic or not. Just easier for the first and they never fail not to fail his fellow men.

Also there's primary psychopath and secondary psychopath. When a psychopath rules a country for example essentially he is making much of his population to be secondary psychopath themselves. The population is forced to be harsh and selfish. Survival of the fittest is perhaps the best motto for a psychopath though technically I'd think their traits are a disability.

Originally Posted by DarkFish

What are the statistics?

Not good if you're in the US I read 1 out of 5 in US are psychopathic.

It's much better in Britain. Like every 1 out of 10 or 20 can't really remember.

read those on local newspaper I think years ago.

@Neon Samurai I don't think psychopath have no feelings just that they have no soul. They may be excited or even takes pleasure at causing others suffering and they could be made angry for sure and I bet most are proud about themselves too besides impatient and resentful especially for the unsuccessful psychopaths. This alone proves they do have feelings just so twisted they are not normal. They have been termed the human predators. if normal people are like gun then psychopaths are guns without safety switch . . . . but they think that is their advantage. They are people without control since they have no conscience they are unleashed without boundaries only desires to be fulfilled. In short I'd think them as animal because animals are driven solely by their desires and proceed to do thing soley basing on their wants. But then again I've seen animals displaying benevolent deeds and showing long term gratitude and affection.

The thing is what made a psychopath a psychopath is it a defective gene traits much like autism(autism has been found to be the result of mutating genes)? Or cultural or social pressure? or abusive past experience?

[NeonSamurai]

Originally Posted by Castout

Not really it doesn't mean normal people would not make the morally wrong choices but the guilt must be there. Men are fallible psychopathic or not. Just easier for the first and they never fail not to fail his fellow men.

Also there's primary psychopath and secondary psychopath. When a psychopath rules a country for example essentially he is making much of his population to be secondary psychopath themselves. The population is forced to be harsh and selfish. Survival of the fittest is perhaps the best motto for a psychopath though technically I'd think their traits are a disability.

There is no such thing as primary and secondary psychopaths, its a disorder that you either do have or don't have. You can't turn someone into a psychopath. I can also point to several countries where the rulers are in fact not psychopathic, and such behavior exists in the general populace either due to social norms of that society, or extreme distress (warfare, starvation, etc)

Not good if you're in the US I read 1 out of 5 in US are psychopathic.

It's much better in Britain. Like every 1 out of 10 or 20 can't really remember.

read those on local newspaper I think years ago.

I think that newspaper is full of it. For one thing no research I know of shows any difference in population levels of psychopathic individuals between countries or levels of development. I am also not aware of any professional quoting those kinds of numbers. 1% of the population is the estimate given by Dr. Hare who is the foremost expert in the field.

@Neon Samurai I don't think psychopath have no feelings just that they have no soul. They may be excited or even takes pleasure at causing others suffering and they could be made angry for sure and I bet most are proud about themselves too besides impatient and resentful especially for the unsuccessful psychopaths. This alone proves they do have feelings just so twisted they are not normal. They have been termed the human predators. if normal people are like gun then psychopaths are guns without safety switch . . . . but they think that is their advantage. They are people without control since they have no conscience they are unleashed without boundaries only desires to be fulfilled. In short I'd think them as animal because animals are driven solely by their desires and proceed to do thing soley basing on their wants. But then again I've seen animals displaying benevolent deeds and showing long term gratitude and affection.

The thing is what made a psychopath a psychopath is it a defective gene traits much like autism(autism has been found to be the result of mutating genes)? Or cultural or social pressure? or abusive past experience?

I am not going to get into religious concepts such as souls. I am going strictly by the scientific research available, which goes against most of what you have said, and say above. Frankly I think a large part of that video is full of it, and I would like to see the evidence and research that the author has (if any) to back up the claims made. Frankly if you are going to make such claims yourself I would like to see the research that backs up your statements (and no that video, nor do popular books count, I want empirical research). I'll be happy to cite references for mine.

As for causes, it is either genetic, or in utero brain damage (infection maybe?) from the currently available data. Signs of psychopathy show up at a very early age (setting fires, torturing and killing animals, lack of emotions, lack of fear/anxiety), and environment seems to play little part in it (there are several psychopaths that have come from perfectly loving and otherwise happy homes, and plenty of people who were abused to unimaginable levels that did not become psychopathic). We do know that it is not caused by "Or cultural or social pressure? or abusive past experience?". As I have said a few times now, they are born not made.

[Armistead]

Clarice...........

Hannibal Lecter: First principles, Clarice. Simplicity. Read Marcus Aurelius. Of each particular thing ask: what is it in itself? What is its nature? What does he do, this man you seek?
Clarice Starling: He kills women...
Hannibal Lecter: No. That is incidental. What is the first and principal thing he does? What needs does he serve by killing?
Clarice Starling: Anger, um, social acceptance, and, huh, sexual frustrations, sir...
Hannibal Lecter: No! He covets. That is his nature. And how do we begin to covet, Clarice? Do we seek out things to covet? Make an effort to answer now.
Clarice Starling: No. We just...
Hannibal Lecter: No. We begin by coveting what we see every day. Don't you feel eyes moving over your body, Clarice? And don't your eyes seek out the things you want?

[NeonSamurai]

Anyhow some videos

First off fMRI scans of prison population psychopaths


50 minute documentary about psychopaths with interviews (I think I posted this sometime before so you all may have seen it).

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by NeonSamurai

One key point though is that mental illness and personality disorders (psychopathy would be one), are not black and white, but exist on a continuum. This means that they can vary quite a bit in actual manifestation from one individual to another.

Thanks for posting that.

I have met one truly psychopathic person in the military. This was back in 1981. I thought he was psychotic but evidently I had the definitions reversed. It was pretty scary being around him. He was not violent to people when I knew him but he was well down the path of cruelty to animals.

A very scary person to be around.

[NeonSamurai]

My pleasure and most of the general public has the two things reversed, even I did before I got into the field (or rather I didn't know of the difference between psychotic and psychopathic). Your average 'crazy' or psychotic person (schizophrenic) is about as dangerous in general as your average 'sane' person.

Ya I've met a few before my current career. One thing about them I, and others have noticed, is they have this very distinctive way of looking at others. They kind of look through you, and you can sort of sense that you are utterly insignificant to them, and were you to get in their way, they would likely treat you, as most people would treat an insect. Every one I have ever met has had that stare (including the psychopaths in the videos I linked).