Israel - lock n load!

[kiwi_2005]

If Israel can stop 400 million arabs from overtaking them Then why the hell do they not take out the Iranian president. This guy needs to be taken down. Hes a threat not just to israel but all us westerners. No1 enemy in my books

I hear the Mossad would have no problem in completing this mission

The nutter speaks
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...317417,00.html <-----This way TteFAboB

[TteFAboB]

I feel so blind, thanks for the directions.

[Skybird]

Iran is in an extremely strong position, and I tend to think of them as one of the most dominant and influential powers on the globe. We may not like it, but currently I see no way to seriously hurt them without using nukes. they are close to invulnerable as long as China and India do not let them down - and why should they...??? As a matter of fact - we depend on them - while they do not need the West that much. For what should they need the West? Every oil they do not sell to the West, will happily bought by India and China.

If you want to bully someone, make sure you have solid stand. In this, we have not.

That's why I say time and again: without making it our absolute top priority to become independent from Muslim oil, all our actions about Iran, Islam, hezbollah - only is hot air. We can't afford it another fifty years to depend on them selling us oil (or not). We can't depend anymore to live at the receiving end of these incredible vulnerable lifelines of tankers and pipelines and trading lines that are so very open to attack and shutting-down by anyone who likes to do that.

And the Iranians know that! As an Israeli security expert recently pointed out in a German interview, Arabs are proud of their traditions and thus tend to act stereotypic and repeat the same old mistakes time and again, but the Persians are no Arabs, and are smart thinkers and clever minds - which makes them an extremely dangerous enemy.

Also mind you that it falls into this scheme that the most dominant crisis in the ME is not around Israel, but the confrontation between Shia and Sunni Islam. Sunni Arabs fear Shia Iran very much. the conflict is one millennium old, and never was cold. Sunnis have understood that Israel is no threat to their regimes. But Iran-supported Shia Islam is a very extreme danger to them. Have you noticed how relatively silent the Sunni states were about Israel trying to crack Iran-backed Shia Hezbollah?

The inner conflict of an enemy is our benefit. i wonder why we do not start to think about how we could widen and exploit the gap within Islam, economically, culturally, financially, politically, by every means available. Oh wait, that is not considered to be polite, I suppose. Oh dear... Once Shias will believe somebody - no matter who it is - who is telling them he is their hidden Iman who returned to them, their in a way "defensive" understanding of jihad will switch to unlimted attack mode (that'S why they are waiting so desperately). Then we will see Islam in uncontrolled charge. we can't afford to let such a person rise to that accepted status of being their long-awaited Imam. Ahmadinejad is referring to that tradition - that's why he gains so many sympathies.

[HunterICX]

seems that we are waiting till the day will come that we are in an open war.
you know its comming , but when?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by HunterICX

seems that we are waiting till the day will come that we are in an open war.
you know its comming , but when?

Hopefully not before we are no longer depending on their oil. Else we will have lost it the day war broke out. and even then it is an extremely risky adventure, and our victory - or even survival - is anything but certain. We are more vulnerable, then they are. Our high complexity and developement standard only works as long as we are confronted with lower powers that can not really hurt us. If faced with the ablity to exploit our weaknesses, we no longer look like the winners for sure - our dependencies on what makes us to superior to lower factions, turns into threatening vulnerability of ourselves.

All wars of the US since WWII have been against much weaker, local factions only that could not project influence or combat effectiveness beyond their region. and even under these optimal conditions, the war sometimes failed (Korea an unsatisfying draw with hurting long-term consequences, Vietnam a total defeat, Iraq a total defeat, Afghanistan about getting lost, the "Stellvertreterkrieg" of Israel versus Hezbollah being a defeat as well - it was the general test and preparation-effort towards an Iran war).

I can only warn of easily starting a war against Iran. And do not even start again to think about wanting to missionise them again towards western understandings of freedom and democracy...!!! try that, and if you do not loose the war during the field battle, you will loose it afterwards nevertheless.

[NefariousKoel]

Originally Posted by Skybird

All wars of the US since WWII have been against much weaker, local factions only that could not project influence or combat effectiveness beyond their region. and even under these optimal conditions, the war sometimes failed (Korea an unsatisfying draw with hurting long-term consequences, Vietnam a total defeat, Iraq a total defeat, Afghanistan about getting lost, the "Stellvertreterkrieg" of Israel versus Hezbollah being a defeat as well - it was the general test and preparation-effort towards an Iran war).

I can only warn of easily starting a war against Iran. And do not even start again to think about wanting to missionise them again towards western understandings of freedom and democracy...!!! try that, and if you do not loose the war during the field battle, you will loose it afterwards nevertheless.

All the wars you mentioned were not wholly successful, or not successful at all due to one thing. Ignorantly restrictive ROE established by US politicians. The same reason the current setup is not working very well IMO.

Fighting a war with one hand tied behind your back (and shoved down your pink freakin' panties) is no way to fight a war at all. Go all the way or don't go at all.

Also..
WTF is Gary on about? People never fail to amaze me when they open their mouth.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by NefariousKoel

All the wars you mentioned were not wholly successful, or not successful at all due to one thing. Ignorantly restrictive ROE established by US politicians. The same reason the current setup is not working very well IMO.

Fighting a war with one hand tied behind your back (and shoved down your pink freakin' panties) is no way to fight a war at all. Go all the way or don't go at all.

I agree on the seocnd part, completely, and have used exactly that phrase myself repeatedly. However, western cou7ntries are not run by the military alone, and their wars are not fought by the military alone, but also by politicians. the union of political and military intentions in western wars is a reality. So it does not matter if you are right or wrong with your argument to put the military failure into relation. the wars were lost, by the whole of the nation - and that includes military as weoll as the political level. Without the political level, it would be no democracy, but a miliztary dictatorship.

but it definitely would help if politicians would have a bit more of brain and reason at times, and would focus on decision making about question wether going to war, or not - and once the decision has been made leave it to the military. But that is not the reality of today.

[micky1up]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Iran is in an extremely strong position, and I tend to think of them as one of the most dominant and influential powers on the globe. We may not like it, but currently I see no way to seriously hurt them without using nukes. they are close to invulnerable as long as China and India do not let them down - and why should they...??? As a matter of fact - we depend on them - while they do not need the West that much. For what should they need the West? Every oil they do not sell to the West, will happily bought by India and China.

If you want to bully someone, make sure you have solid stand. In this, we have not.

That's why I say time and again: without making it our absolute top priority to become independent from Muslim oil, all our actions about Iran, Islam, hezbollah - only is hot air. We can't afford it another fifty years to depend on them selling us oil (or not). We can't depend anymore to live at the receiving end of these incredible vulnerable lifelines of tankers and pipelines and trading lines that are so very open to attack and shutting-down by anyone who likes to do that.

And the Iranians know that! As an Israeli security expert recently pointed out in a German interview, Arabs are proud of their traditions and thus tend to act stereotypic and repeat the same old mistakes time and again, but the Persians are no Arabs, and are smart thinkers and clever minds - which makes them an extremely dangerous enemy.

Also mind you that it falls into this scheme that the most dominant crisis in the ME is not around Israel, but the confrontation between Shia and Sunni Islam. Sunni Arabs fear Shia Iran very much. the conflict is one millennium old, and never was cold. Sunnis have understood that Israel is no threat to their regimes. But Iran-supported Shia Islam is a very extreme danger to them. Have you noticed how relatively silent the Sunni states were about Israel trying to crack Iran-backed Shia Hezbollah?

The inner conflict of an enemy is our benefit. i wonder why we do not start to think about how we could widen and exploit the gap within Islam, economically, culturally, financially, politically, by every means available. Oh wait, that is not considered to be polite, I suppose. Oh dear... Once Shias will believe somebody - no matter who it is - who is telling them he is their hidden Iman who returned to them, their in a way "defensive" understanding of jihad will switch to unlimted attack mode (that'S why they are waiting so desperately). Then we will see Islam in uncontrolled charge. we can't afford to let such a person rise to that accepted status of being their long-awaited Imam. Ahmadinejad is referring to that tradition - that's why he gains so many sympathies.

and if your oil companys hadnt bought out every non petrol car design to stop them being made then you wouldnt be subjected to having to buy eastern oil short term thinking on part of the west, stop buying there oil crash their market and watch em come running arms open

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by micky1up

and if your oil companys hadnt bought out every non petrol car design to stop them being made then you wouldnt be subjected to having to buy eastern oil short term thinking on part of the west, stop buying there oil crash their market and watch em come running arms open

That sounds a bit confused, or I have no idea what you want to say. Not only european car manufacturers have tried to hinder the developement of alternative cars, but American and Japanese car makers as well. Today, manufacturers from all three continents produce them nevertheless.

European cars on average are far more energy efficient than the huge american designs that seem to be the more proud the more litres they consume per 100 km. And if I were American and would come from the one nation that consumes more oil per head and spends more gasoline per car than anyone else, I wouldn' be so easy to accuse others of wasting oil:

the US (5% of world population) consumes 25% of global oil production (EU 18%, China 9%, Japan 6%)

US also consumes 24% of global gas production (EU 17%, Russia 15%, others 23%). I do not list all the other single nations that stand apart from the category "others".

The US is by far not the global leader of sparing energy and reducing energy- and traffic-caused CO2-emissions. (CO2 emission from energy production alone: US 21%, EU 12%, Japan 4%, China 16%, others 37%). In traffic-caused C02-emissions, the relative lead of the US is even higher.

All data given by "BP statistical review 2005", and backed up by "Deutsche Bank Energy-Related Research 2005" which I both have in print.

You also are wrong about the impact on russia if europe no longer buys their oil. Both Russia and Iran, in that case, would simply sell it to China and India in that case, which wouldn't hurt them a bit. Both countries (China and India) are desperately seeking to buy more than their current shares, for their exploding economies urgently need it.

Putin just today has totally rejected any European (united!) demands to be more reliable as a business partner in energy questions and accept obligatory delivery guarantees.

Remember that I say time and again that we must become independent from oil, in general, and Muslim oil in special?

[CB..]

i know this is drifting of topic but it completely msytifies me...
we know we are running out of Oil...we know Oil is absolutely essentail to our society in ways we can't even be bothered to think about...we know Oil is both fundamental to the heart of the economy and at the heart of world politics..not to mention the military situation...

yet there is no mention of finding an alternative..other than the vague notion that some one some where will "think of something"...

Oil IS our civilisation....without it we can't even scratch our own noses..

unless some sort of substitue can be quickly found ..one that will slot into the space left by oil with little or no alteration of current technology,
or the entire technological tree will simply vanish...requiring a vast and un endingly radical change to our way of life

i know it is cool to dismiss the frailtys of our current situation...

but i for one would feel a whole lot better if there were some attempt being made to re-assure the public on this subject...

the fact that little or no re-assurance is being proffered by our governments...is deeply deeply perverse

lets face it if they had the soloution then they would have told us..(if it was at all pleasant)

Originally Posted by CB..

i know this is drifting of topic but it completely msytifies me...
we know we are running out of Oil...we know Oil is absolutely essentail to our society in ways we can't even be bothered to think about...we know Oil is both fundamental to the heart of the economy and at the heart of world politics..not to mention the military situation...

yet there is no mention of finding an alternative..other than the vague notion that some one some where will "think of something"...

Oil IS our civilisation....without it we can't even scratch our own noses..

unless some sort of substitue can be quickly found ..one that will slot into the space left by oil with little or no alteration of current technology,
or the entire technological tree will simply vanish...requiring a vast and un endingly radical change to our way of life

i know it is cool to dismiss the frailtys of our current situation...

but i for one would feel a whole lot better if there were some attempt being made to re-assure the public on this subject...

the fact that little or no re-assurance is being proffered by our governments...is deeply deeply perverse

lets face it if they had the soloution then they would have told us..(if it was at all pleasant)

Yes it's off topic and perhaps a new thread is waranted. Until then I have a bit of food for thought.

"Despite the continued growth in global consumption of petroleum, proven oil reserves have increased steadily over the past twenty years, in large part because oil companies have revised their estimates of reserves in known fields. According to the Oil & Gas Journal’s production estimates, during the period of 1970 to 2000, 680 Gb of oil was produced, but 980 Gb of reserves were added. Under old technologies, oil companies could only retrieve about 35 percent of the oil in place; with enhanced technologies, including directional drilling, companies have increased that amount and with new technologies, it is believed that it is possible to extract up to 65 percent of the oil in the field. Moreover, three and four dimensional seismic exploration technology has led to revised estimates of oil that can be economically extracted. Reserves are defined by economic as well as geological considerations; one reason that reserves increase is that companies do not invest funding in exploration and enhanced recovery until there is a demand and the prices of oil warrants the expenditure."

[fredbass]

Originally Posted by kiwi_2005

If Israel can stop 400 million arabs from overtaking them Then why the hell do they not take out the Iranian president. This guy needs to be taken down. Hes a threat not just to israel but all us westerners. No1 enemy in my books.

Don't worry, they'll do what they have to do. There's been a number of covert and secret operations against them already. I'm sure there will be more. Plus they can do our work for us. They're excellent sub-contractors.

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by kiwi_2005

If Israel can stop 400 million arabs from overtaking them Then why the hell do they not take out the Iranian president. This guy needs to be taken down. Hes a threat not just to israel but all us westerners. No1 enemy in my books

I hear the Mossad would have no problem in completing this mission

The nutter speaks
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...317417,00.html <-----This way TteFAboB

Because it would be a waste of time. He has no real power in that country. He is merly a puppet.

[HunterICX]

:hmm: like I have to agree with skybird
it sounds like ''we're screwed anyway if we dont think of an solution fast''

Hey! Kiwi_2005,
It sounds to me like your book is the book of the "jew puppet"!
shalom,