Reality V Enjoyment

TDK1044 · 09-17-06, 10:37 AM

I think with all the "realism" discussions as to whether the Silent Hunter series is a sim or a game, or whether gameplay is more important the graphics, it's easy to lose track of the fact that enjoyment of the playing experience is crucial.

I've played SH111 at 100 percent reality and I find it challenging but less enjoyable than playing it at about 70 percent reality. That's why, for me, the Silent Hunter series are games and not simulators. A true simulator doesn't give you the ability to select 'easier' options, it simply confronts you with a series of events containing varying degrees of difficulty and then asseses how well you deal with them.

So I look forward to SH1V, with the hope that it's an improvement on SH111 patched to 1.4 both in terms of gameplay and graphics, and that it's more modder friendly.

CB.. · 09-17-06, 12:54 PM

here's a slightly contentiuos thought...not dissimilar to the gameplay versus graphics confusion..spend time and money on the graphics or spend time and money on the gameplay ( a nonsense if you ask me)

if the developers spent less time making sure that each destroyer had exactly the right number of portholes masts funnels rivets turning circle top speed etc etc etc- endlessly on and on
they might have enough time to write genuinely realistic AI routines for the said destroyer...and that IMO is the issue in a nut shell both on realism versus gameplay AND realism versus graphics..

want a 100% realistic (light glinting on the windows etc) destroyer with all the correct specs and equipment?
so you can pretend your up against the "real thing"
or genuinely realistic AI tactics co-operation movements (pineapple manuevers etc etc)....because apparantly developers are not capable of doing both at the same time..as some would have us believe..

the AI is the game...full stop...good AI will give many hours of enjoyment..and be realistic at the same time..you need to be made to feel that those DD captains up top tracking you down are human..not automated life less characterless BOTS simply going thru the motions

there are ways and means of tackling and prioritising realism that add to the gameplay...and to the enjoyment of the game, immaccolata mentioned crew conversations, very realistic very immersive and very enjoyable,
enjoyable gameplay in this genre is all about creating a convincing illusion there's no reason why that illusion should not contain as much dynamic detail as say an RPG, using references from history this would be entirely realistic, and enjoyable.
what ever you choose to call it realism or gameplay it is about dynamic details..a living world, not just a dead beat black or white game enviourment beacuse that is in itself the most unrealistic detraction possible

if you/me/any-one do/does not enjoy playing the sim/game then why would anyone play it? macsosism??? some deluded idea that it actualy makes you/me/any-one a hero? give it a bit of thought and you can see how barmy the idea is..

TDK1044 · 09-17-06, 01:27 PM

Entirely agree, CB

Immacolata · 09-17-06, 01:44 PM

Im not sure you understand how the developement works. There are model designers. They design models such as submarine, interior, ships, buildings, houses etc. They do not make AI. They make their models to specs, and the programmers imports them and fits them to their code.

You cannot argue that a 3d artist obsessing over port holes somehow affects the AI in the end. The artist is not a general purpose unit that can spend spare timeslots on AI or coding.

finchOU · 09-17-06, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Immacolata

Im not sure you understand how the developement works. There are model designers. They design models such as submarine, interior, ships, buildings, houses etc. They do not make AI. They make their models to specs, and the programmers imports them and fits them to their code.

You cannot argue that a 3d artist obsessing over port holes somehow affects the AI in the end. The artist is not a general purpose unit that can spend spare timeslots on AI or coding.

well maybe then they need less of graphic coders and more AI coders? I think his point is that AI needs more developement than gnats ass graphic detail. Maybe beef up the brain before the body? Thats what I read into it.

CB.. · 09-17-06, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Immacolata

Im not sure you understand how the developement works. There are model designers. They design models such as submarine, interior, ships, buildings, houses etc. They do not make AI. They make their models to specs, and the programmers imports them and fits them to their code.

You cannot argue that a 3d artist obsessing over port holes somehow affects the AI in the end. The artist is not a general purpose unit that can spend spare timeslots on AI or coding.

i see so the guys whose responsibility it is to write the AI code...what are they paid for? dear me this is basic stuff again...
either they are very limited in ability imagination or desire...or they are instructed not to spend too much time on it...or they have their budget limited- the AI code gets written, the graphics code gets written, the models get made--good bad or indifferent -three guesses which is good, which is bad and which is indifferent..an interesting question tho..do they even have an AI team?
is it important enough to even warrant that much attention? etc etc
when you order a pizza how do you divide it up?? be fascinated to see the delivery that when once you have given 70% to the graphics guys there's still somehow 70% left for the rest of the team...

Immacolata · 09-18-06, 02:39 AM

AI code is the thing that you can put in last. You have to know all other elements, have all entities in the game before it makes sense to start creating AI. Maybe some rudimentary AI is put into place when you get your first real version up, so that you can test various things. I bet the AI was the thing they worked most on at the end of the project.

If you change paramters for ships or subs, then you have to test if the AI works as you intend every time. A time consuming proces.

SO the poor state of vanilla AI in SH3 is caused by

1) Inexperience. They had not make submarine sim before. AI is very specific for each game.
2) Time pressure. ubi wanted this baby out of the door YESTERDAY. So just make it so good the reviewers will give it high grade. They already got their dynamic campaign, so **** the AI just get the damn game out NOW!!! Or you are all FIRED!

09-17-06, 10:37 AM	#1
TDK1044 Ocean Warrior Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 2,674 Downloads: 25 Uploads: 0	Reality V Enjoyment I think with all the "realism" discussions as to whether the Silent Hunter series is a sim or a game, or whether gameplay is more important the graphics, it's easy to lose track of the fact that enjoyment of the playing experience is crucial. I've played SH111 at 100 percent reality and I find it challenging but less enjoyable than playing it at about 70 percent reality. That's why, for me, the Silent Hunter series are games and not simulators. A true simulator doesn't give you the ability to select 'easier' options, it simply confronts you with a series of events containing varying degrees of difficulty and then asseses how well you deal with them. So I look forward to SH1V, with the hope that it's an improvement on SH111 patched to 1.4 both in terms of gameplay and graphics, and that it's more modder friendly.

09-17-06, 12:54 PM	#2
CB.. Ace of the Deep Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: UK Posts: 1,278 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	here's a slightly contentiuos thought...not dissimilar to the gameplay versus graphics confusion..spend time and money on the graphics or spend time and money on the gameplay ( a nonsense if you ask me) if the developers spent less time making sure that each destroyer had exactly the right number of portholes masts funnels rivets turning circle top speed etc etc etc- endlessly on and on they might have enough time to write genuinely realistic AI routines for the said destroyer...and that IMO is the issue in a nut shell both on realism versus gameplay AND realism versus graphics.. want a 100% realistic (light glinting on the windows etc) destroyer with all the correct specs and equipment? so you can pretend your up against the "real thing" or genuinely realistic AI tactics co-operation movements (pineapple manuevers etc etc)....because apparantly developers are not capable of doing both at the same time..as some would have us believe.. the AI is the game...full stop...good AI will give many hours of enjoyment..and be realistic at the same time..you need to be made to feel that those DD captains up top tracking you down are human..not automated life less characterless BOTS simply going thru the motions there are ways and means of tackling and prioritising realism that add to the gameplay...and to the enjoyment of the game, immaccolata mentioned crew conversations, very realistic very immersive and very enjoyable, enjoyable gameplay in this genre is all about creating a convincing illusion there's no reason why that illusion should not contain as much dynamic detail as say an RPG, using references from history this would be entirely realistic, and enjoyable. what ever you choose to call it realism or gameplay it is about dynamic details..a living world, not just a dead beat black or white game enviourment beacuse that is in itself the most unrealistic detraction possible if you/me/any-one do/does not enjoy playing the sim/game then why would anyone play it? macsosism??? some deluded idea that it actualy makes you/me/any-one a hero? give it a bit of thought and you can see how barmy the idea is.. __________________ the world's tinyiest sh3 supermod- and other SH3/SH2 stuff http://www.ebort2.co.uk/ The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity. W.B.Yeats Last edited by CB..; 09-17-06 at 01:29 PM.

09-17-06, 01:27 PM	#3
TDK1044 Ocean Warrior Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 2,674 Downloads: 25 Uploads: 0	Entirely agree, CB

09-17-06, 01:44 PM	#4
Immacolata Grey Wolf Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 798 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	Im not sure you understand how the developement works. There are model designers. They design models such as submarine, interior, ships, buildings, houses etc. They do not make AI. They make their models to specs, and the programmers imports them and fits them to their code. You cannot argue that a 3d artist obsessing over port holes somehow affects the AI in the end. The artist is not a general purpose unit that can spend spare timeslots on AI or coding.

09-18-06, 02:39 AM	#7
Immacolata Grey Wolf Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 798 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	AI code is the thing that you can put in last. You have to know all other elements, have all entities in the game before it makes sense to start creating AI. Maybe some rudimentary AI is put into place when you get your first real version up, so that you can test various things. I bet the AI was the thing they worked most on at the end of the project. If you change paramters for ships or subs, then you have to test if the AI works as you intend every time. A time consuming proces. SO the poor state of vanilla AI in SH3 is caused by 1) Inexperience. They had not make submarine sim before. AI is very specific for each game. 2) Time pressure. ubi wanted this baby out of the door YESTERDAY. So just make it so good the reviewers will give it high grade. They already got their dynamic campaign, so **** the AI just get the damn game out NOW!!! Or you are all FIRED!