Why didn't they have towed sonar arrays?

Quagmire · 09-15-06, 11:08 AM

A friend of mine and I were having a discussion on the capabilities of modern sonar (yes, sub freaks do this...) and the discussion turned to towed sonar arrays.

Question is, why didn't these exist in WWII? The technology is there to configure at least a primitive towed hydrophone. A simple hydrodynamic sled with a hydrophone on it that could be towed behind the sub so that you could listen while on the surface wouldnt be to hard to concieve.

And if they did exist, why didnt the Kreigsmarine develop one? If they can develop ladder running pattern torpedoes a towed array shouldnt be too hard?

Hylander_1314 · 09-15-06, 11:23 AM

IIRC, things like this were being developed later in the war, but did not make it to the application phase. Remember that sonar, and radar were both still in their infancy, just like ASW was. Just like "smart bombs" made their debut in March of 1945, but they were too late to be of any benefit to the flagging Luftwaffe. And it took nearly 50 years of technical advancements in electronics to make them practical.

SteamWake · 09-15-06, 01:54 PM

Only thing I can think of is that nobody thought of it.

That and the fact that it was 1940 something and sonar let alone asdic were new concepts.

Also assetts were committed elsewhere especally on the axis side.

It would not supprise me at all if it had dabbled in. Hell they invented an airplane that could be launched from a sub (shrug).

Stiebler · 09-15-06, 03:06 PM

There were a lot of complaints from U-boat crews later in the war about the amount of clutter with which they were having to contend while surfacing briefly under an Allied-controlled sky. Can you imagine trying to deploy such an array from a U-boat rocking on the surface every time you come up for air; half a dozen men on deck dragging the sonar array around in a storm, and at any moment the radar detector might begin its beeping.

If you have an automatic deployment apparatus from under the U-boat, what happens if/when it jams? The sonar array will register on asdic and create popping sounds underwater. It may also act as a drag on underwater speed.

Another potential problem: the sonar array, being towed, might easily wrap itself around the propellers. This was an occasional problem with early refuellings at sea from U-tankers.

Stiebler. (My guess, anyway).

Letum · 09-15-06, 05:43 PM

I find it hard to believe someone didn't think of it.
There was stiff competition for resources and man power for thousands of new developments in the war. This one happened to be given a very low priority so it didn't enter planning.

09-15-06, 05:43 PM

Probably due to the lack of space aboard the U-boats! They would have rather stowed another torpedo back then. It was probably easier then to do a full 360 turn to hear what's behind them.

Quagmire · 09-15-06, 10:15 PM

Yeah, you are proabaly right SubSerpent. German U-Boats were small indeed. I just was fondly remembering the towed array from my 688 Attack Sub days!

Actually the Germans did come up with a towed array of sorts. I am sure you have heard of the Bachstelze. A towed array for the air, not the sea.

Check it out:

http://uboat.net/technical/bachstelze.htm

http://www.flying-bike.demon.co.uk/helistuff/uboat.html

This would be a fun toy in SHIII wouldn't it! I don't know about losing a crewman every time I crash dive though. WAIT A MINUTE! That would be a great place to station seaman BERNARD!

09-15-06, 11:08 AM	#1
Quagmire Watch Officer Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 335 Downloads: 52 Uploads: 0	Why didn't they have towed sonar arrays? A friend of mine and I were having a discussion on the capabilities of modern sonar (yes, sub freaks do this...) and the discussion turned to towed sonar arrays. Question is, why didn't these exist in WWII? The technology is there to configure at least a primitive towed hydrophone. A simple hydrodynamic sled with a hydrophone on it that could be towed behind the sub so that you could listen while on the surface wouldnt be to hard to concieve. And if they did exist, why didnt the Kreigsmarine develop one? If they can develop ladder running pattern torpedoes a towed array shouldnt be too hard?

09-15-06, 11:23 AM	#2
Hylander_1314 Sea Lord Join Date: May 2006 Location: 5 Miles Inland West Of Lake Huron Posts: 1,936 Downloads: 139 Uploads: 0	IIRC, things like this were being developed later in the war, but did not make it to the application phase. Remember that sonar, and radar were both still in their infancy, just like ASW was. Just like "smart bombs" made their debut in March of 1945, but they were too late to be of any benefit to the flagging Luftwaffe. And it took nearly 50 years of technical advancements in electronics to make them practical. __________________ A legislative act contrary to the Constitution is not law. -John Marshall Chief Justice of the Supreme Court ---------------------

09-15-06, 05:43 PM	#6
SubSerpent Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Probably due to the lack of space aboard the U-boats! They would have rather stowed another torpedo back then. It was probably easier then to do a full 360 turn to hear what's behind them. Last edited by SubSerpent; 09-15-06 at 05:59 PM.

09-15-06, 01:54 PM	#3
SteamWake Rear Admiral Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 13,224 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Only thing I can think of is that nobody thought of it. That and the fact that it was 1940 something and sonar let alone asdic were new concepts. Also assetts were committed elsewhere especally on the axis side. It would not supprise me at all if it had dabbled in. Hell they invented an airplane that could be launched from a sub (shrug).

09-15-06, 03:06 PM	#4
Stiebler Fuel Supplier Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 1,237 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 4	There were a lot of complaints from U-boat crews later in the war about the amount of clutter with which they were having to contend while surfacing briefly under an Allied-controlled sky. Can you imagine trying to deploy such an array from a U-boat rocking on the surface every time you come up for air; half a dozen men on deck dragging the sonar array around in a storm, and at any moment the radar detector might begin its beeping. If you have an automatic deployment apparatus from under the U-boat, what happens if/when it jams? The sonar array will register on asdic and create popping sounds underwater. It may also act as a drag on underwater speed. Another potential problem: the sonar array, being towed, might easily wrap itself around the propellers. This was an occasional problem with early refuellings at sea from U-tankers. Stiebler. (My guess, anyway).

09-15-06, 05:43 PM	#5
Letum Navy Seal Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: York - UK Posts: 6,079 Downloads: 43 Uploads: 0	I find it hard to believe someone didn't think of it. There was stiff competition for resources and man power for thousands of new developments in the war. This one happened to be given a very low priority so it didn't enter planning.

09-15-06, 10:15 PM	#7
Quagmire Watch Officer Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 335 Downloads: 52 Uploads: 0	Yeah, you are proabaly right SubSerpent. German U-Boats were small indeed. I just was fondly remembering the towed array from my 688 Attack Sub days! Actually the Germans did come up with a towed array of sorts. I am sure you have heard of the Bachstelze. A towed array for the air, not the sea. Check it out: http://uboat.net/technical/bachstelze.htm http://www.flying-bike.demon.co.uk/helistuff/uboat.html This would be a fun toy in SHIII wouldn't it! I don't know about losing a crewman every time I crash dive though. WAIT A MINUTE! That would be a great place to station seaman BERNARD!