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#1 |
Sonar Guy
![]() Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Poland
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I've read much about Australian Collins class submarines "sinking" several LA class SSNs that were trying to hunt them, or even actively seeking, hunting and sinking LAs during various exercises with US Navy. According to RAN the tactics of US subs were poor and they underestimated the capabilites of both Australian boats and crews. The "we are the best and no one other even close" syndrom ;-) I can understand it easily as Collins at slow speeds is much quieter than 688s or 688is, and have excelent sensors, also I can easily imagine US commanders being surprised that any OTHER navy knows how to can operate submarines ;-))
But now I hears something that was more surprisong for me. I heard from few sources, one of them being an officer from ORP Sokol, Polish Kobben class submarine, that during regular exercises Strong Resolve on North Sea, the polish Kilo class SSK ORP Orzel that is playing the "hunted" to allow western navies train against a Kilo class, not only the Orzel regulary don't allow to be detected and hunted, but usually detects and "sinks" the hunting Trafalgar class SSNs !! ![]() Now this has surprised me more, because the Trafalgar is comparable quiet as a running Kilo, according to some data the Trafalgar is little quieter (of course Kilo becomes much quieter when stationary), and most probably the Trafalgar has much better sensors and data processing. And most importantly, I don't suppose the RN commanders and crew to underestimate the threat or poor/wrong tactics. To sink several Trafalgars that were hunting you, without being killed, well it's quite a achievement I guess ? :-) I could easily imagine Kilo being not detected, if staying dead in the water (or on the bottom), but up to now didn't think they are able to detect, track and engage the hunting Trafalgars. Of course, by a chance, but not regulary !! ![]() Hmm have to try if it's possible in DW (substituting 688i for Trafalgars) and think how to change data (noise levels or sensors) if it's not. Anyway, I wanted to ask if anyone knows more details about those exercises (Strong Resolve, at least three years) and the Trafalgar's being "sunk" by Kilo ? Any info about tactics or ROE of the exercises ? Or is it known fact at all ? I suppose it's little frustrating for RN commanders :-) |
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#2 |
Navy Seal
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I think micky1up would be the guy to ask.
Also this is the North Sea we are talking about. Not that deep really for an SSN to operate effectively in. I'm not making excuses out of patriotism, it is always possible for a good crew in an inferior machine who try hard and play smart to beat a superior vessel even if it has a good crew. Obviously being a diesel-electric going dead slow and almost stop would put the Kilo at the advantage, plus it would have the maneauvering advantage given its size. Also it depends on the size of the exercise area. Starting positions etc. What you are telling does show how a Kilo class sub should not be underestimated. Used as a smart mobile mine it can be deadly. It would be interesting to find out more. I don't however think you should start changing values in the database based on this exercise until more info can be found out. good luck though. |
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#3 |
Sub Test Pilot
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Since strong resolve the orzel went on to challenge USN SSN's and won 4:1 i do believe it was, it was an exercise held with the USN RN polish and german navies in the baltic sea back in 2002, kilos are deadly in shallows catch them in deep ocean they can disapear.
But as xabbarus did say good crew inferior boat normaly wins, its not what you have that counts it what you know.
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#4 |
Subsim Diehard
![]() Join Date: May 2006
Location: Texas!
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Yeah, your probably right to try to get more information before drawing to many inferences. What are the chances of a Polish officer exaggerating results in a Polish vs British contest? Pretty darn good.
The details of the scenarios would have to be known too. Personally I think the scenario, objective, time constraints, etc are the most cruical factor in deciding who wins and looses. Did the T-boats need to pick up speed in order to cover the op area in a certain amount of time? Was the Kilo free to sit, or did it have to reach any coordinates? What if it was the other way around? With T-boats hiding and the Kilo hunting them? What if it was a scenario where T-boats needed to penetrate a barrier and launch strikes and the Kilo needed to protect the area? Would it still be 4-0, or would it be 0-4? What's the definition of "a kill"? Its darn hard to find anyone willing to talk about the details... and probably illegal for them to do so... If you find anything let us know ![]()
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"Seek not to offend or annoy... only to speak the truth"-a wise man Last edited by LoBlo; 08-03-06 at 12:53 PM. |
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#5 |
Sea Lord
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Question has been asked.Whether anybody answers remains to be seen!
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#6 |
Subsim Diehard
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Location: Texas!
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I've never quite understood the origin of this "our training is superior" attitude that most British forces present. "Better trained" has become almost a catch phrase amongst UK advocates, but what supports that claim?
You can't tell me that the methods used by the British sub forces are much different than seen in any other modern western navy. No doubt that the French are using top notch training methods with the use of top notch simulators, training software, exercises, drills, and qualifications. German submarines are no doubt using top quality tatics and training methods as well, as are the US, Dutch, and Australian forces. Human psychology and learning tatics probably don't vary much either. So where does this claim that UK training is better than French, German, Australian, or any other navy come from? What supports it? Its more reasonable to believe that the command and crews of any modern navy have more than likely received comparably rigorous, viligent training with equal competance.
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"Seek not to offend or annoy... only to speak the truth"-a wise man |
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#7 | |||||
Naval Royalty
![]() Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Washington, DC
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It's not like the rest of the world isn't giving US commanders plenty of reason to believe they're the best, believe me. Although honestly, it's not that we're that good necessarily, it's that most of them are that bad, lemme tell ya. I think the most challenging thing for any submarine is having any really good idea of what's going on around it at all. I've seen enough stuff to be led to believe that real masters of sonar and TMA are rare at best, and most submarines from every nation sort of wander the ocean, dazed and confused and by a combination of statistics, patience, and the fact that nobody happens to notice them, manage to be able to inflict awful damage upon their adversary. Quote:
Kilo = diesel electric Diesel electrics on the battery are obnoxiously quiet compared to nukes. If the data is unclassified, it's most likely unreliable, or else meaningless. Unless someone sticks a gram in front of you and a bunch of oceanographic data to go with it, nothing you hear about the relative "noisyness" of any particular submarine really means anything. Quote:
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Then again, in a different place or at a different time of the year, everything could be different. Without specifics, it's impossible to understand exactly what happened, or even attempt to reconstruct the exercise. Quote:
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