LWAMI4: Helos, Aircraft, and Submarines

LuftWolf · 07-18-06, 11:43 PM

Here is perhaps the most controversial aspect of the changes I am currently making for LWAMI4, so I thought I'd run this by you guys while I was doing the work for the next playtest version (with documentation this time).

Here are things to keep in mind: 1) masts cannot be made detectable in DW, period 2) the detection models for both visual and passive sonar do not make any distinction (apparently) between objects being on the same side of the water level or on different sides (so in the air or underwater) aside from the arbitrary hardcaps set in the database

I have reworked the autocrew lookout sensors on the MH60 and P-3 (the permanently enabled lookouts that report visual contacts ahead and slightly to the rear) so they can "see" underwater and detect submarines at slightly deeper than periscope depth and report these contact to the player (the exact depth varies by the height of the submarine, it's generally 70-80ft).

In good weather conditions, the autocrews will detect most submarines around 2nm (this cannot be varied by altitude), with some variability based on submarine size.

The AI lookout sensors for AI platforms and the FFG have been boosted somewhat over previous settings as they were a bit shortsighted before (in my opinion), and because as part of the fix, I had to reduce the detectability of the submarines when on the surface, although the calibration to the AI and the FFG negates this, while still retaining for AI air platforms the same detection parameters on submerged submarines as the MH60 and P-3 lookouts.

However, I had fewer options with the MH60 and P-3, so the mean detectability for the submarines when at PD is the same as when surfaced (for the lookout sensors). This is unavoidable. This choice was either to have submarines be too detectable while underwater or not to have them detectable at all underwater, in other words make no changes.

That's the first caveat. The second is that in bad weather (night, rain) the detectablity drops not to 0, as one would expect if this were modeling strictly a visual sensor, but to about 60% of the distance in good conditions.

NOW, before you all jump at this, I need to explain the logic behind this configuration. First, the sensor is not modelling strictly a one-to-one visual sweep of the crew of the platform trying to view the submarine underwater. Second, you all need to be aware that the AI platforms, when at PD, are considered to be at Comms depth and able to report links and also will have several other sensors available to them (like perscope, ESM, etc.) when at PD in LWAMI4. These will be enabled automatically whenever the submarine is at PD. So in a sense, any submarine at PD is considered by the engine to have all its masts in the air.

In terms of player submarines, there are definately times when one would be at PD and not have a mast raised, however, this is by far the most common reason one would be at PD, or at least to have the option of raising the mast, with currently no additional risk of counterdetection than being anywhere within MAD or acoustic distance. I believe there should be significant risk in being at PD, and so this is one way of addressing both the mast issue and the inability to see submarines underwater.

The 2nm in good weather is not *that much* greater than one would see submarines in optimal conditions (at least according to some sources...) and the 1nm or so the submarines would be detected in bad conditions would strictly represent mast detection or the wake made by the sail/masts.

On the other hand, for the bubbleheads, one consequence of the way I am redoing the missile launch transients to give TIW's is that helos and aircraft will once again be detectable on submarine sonars, and most likely at ranges greater than the ability of the helo or aircraft to be able to detect you at PD (I have yet to work out the details of this aspect of it), so if you get spotted, that's because you didn't check your sonar, or got "overflown by a low-flying multi-engined turboprop." :p

Oh, also, I'm going to add sonobuoy splashes... they'll be quiet and almost impossible to distinguish on russian sonar, but at least they will be there.

I'm open to any and all feedback about these features.

Cheers,
David

goldorak · 07-19-06, 01:57 AM

I can only express my appreciation for your work, you're THE MAN LUFTWOLF.
At least now subs won't be "invisible" while being near the surface, this for me as a p-3 or mh-60 player from time to time is really really good news.
It makes playing those units less frustrating.

Mau · 07-19-06, 04:58 AM

Looks very exciting!!!!

Continue your outstansing work Luftwolf
Your the best!!!

Mau

OneShot · 07-19-06, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luftwolf

On the other hand, for the bubbleheads, one consequence of the way I am redoing the missile launch transients to give TIW's is that helos and aircraft will once again be detectable on submarine sonars, and most likely at ranges greater than the ability of the helo or aircraft to be able to detect you at PD (I have yet to work out the details of this aspect of it), so if you get spotted, that's because you didn't check your sonar, or got "overflown by a low-flying multi-engined turboprop."

My suggestion on that would be :

- Hovering Helos (out to 100ft altitude) are detectable out to say 2nm on normal and/or 3nm on good conditions on sonar (TA).
- All moving Aircraft above 100kts and at a max of 400ft altitude are detectable at a max of 500yds [normal conditions] and/or 1nm [good conditions: seastate 1, no rain ...] on sonar (TA).

If possible the detection should be dependant upon the depth of the submarine, but if thats not possible then I would say the numbers work out ok either way.

I would like to hear the opinion from our actual sonar guys (as far as classification allows) on this.

PeriscopeDepth · 07-19-06, 02:36 PM

I like it LW, a lot.

PD

Phullbrick · 07-20-06, 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mau

Looks very exciting!!!!

Indeed

can't wait more !

one question, does the game engine allow an ohp to radar detect a sub mats/antennas when raised ? (not sure about this)

OneShot · 07-20-06, 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phullbrick

one question, does the game engine allow an ohp to radar detect a sub mats/antennas when raised ? (not sure about this)

Unfortunatly not, otherwise this wouldnt be a problem. Therefore we have to do with some sort of workaround. All masts are neither detectable by radar nor by visual means (with the exception that you can see the masts on your own platform).

goldorak · 07-20-06, 06:40 AM

Edit : The issue (non detectability of masts by surface ships) is not to be considered a bug.
case closed.

DivingWind · 07-20-06, 07:58 AM

Sounds great! Keep up the good work!

Phullbrick · 07-20-06, 07:59 AM

too bad

I remember I read a couple of days ago that some recent furtive frigates can get radar profils as low as a submarine with all its mats raised, too bad we have this bug here which prevent us from doing like in real. Plus, this is one of the OHP role (asw) which can't be done : I'm sure less submarine would go to surface to fire sam if they knew the OHP could already detect them when they are at PD looking above water before they surface.

07-18-06, 11:43 PM	#1
LuftWolf Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2005 Location: Free New York Posts: 3,167 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	LWAMI4: Helos, Aircraft, and Submarines Here is perhaps the most controversial aspect of the changes I am currently making for LWAMI4, so I thought I'd run this by you guys while I was doing the work for the next playtest version (with documentation this time). Here are things to keep in mind: 1) masts cannot be made detectable in DW, period 2) the detection models for both visual and passive sonar do not make any distinction (apparently) between objects being on the same side of the water level or on different sides (so in the air or underwater) aside from the arbitrary hardcaps set in the database I have reworked the autocrew lookout sensors on the MH60 and P-3 (the permanently enabled lookouts that report visual contacts ahead and slightly to the rear) so they can "see" underwater and detect submarines at slightly deeper than periscope depth and report these contact to the player (the exact depth varies by the height of the submarine, it's generally 70-80ft). In good weather conditions, the autocrews will detect most submarines around 2nm (this cannot be varied by altitude), with some variability based on submarine size. The AI lookout sensors for AI platforms and the FFG have been boosted somewhat over previous settings as they were a bit shortsighted before (in my opinion), and because as part of the fix, I had to reduce the detectability of the submarines when on the surface, although the calibration to the AI and the FFG negates this, while still retaining for AI air platforms the same detection parameters on submerged submarines as the MH60 and P-3 lookouts. However, I had fewer options with the MH60 and P-3, so the mean detectability for the submarines when at PD is the same as when surfaced (for the lookout sensors). This is unavoidable. This choice was either to have submarines be too detectable while underwater or not to have them detectable at all underwater, in other words make no changes. That's the first caveat. The second is that in bad weather (night, rain) the detectablity drops not to 0, as one would expect if this were modeling strictly a visual sensor, but to about 60% of the distance in good conditions. NOW, before you all jump at this, I need to explain the logic behind this configuration. First, the sensor is not modelling strictly a one-to-one visual sweep of the crew of the platform trying to view the submarine underwater. Second, you all need to be aware that the AI platforms, when at PD, are considered to be at Comms depth and able to report links and also will have several other sensors available to them (like perscope, ESM, etc.) when at PD in LWAMI4. These will be enabled automatically whenever the submarine is at PD. So in a sense, any submarine at PD is considered by the engine to have all its masts in the air. In terms of player submarines, there are definately times when one would be at PD and not have a mast raised, however, this is by far the most common reason one would be at PD, or at least to have the option of raising the mast, with currently no additional risk of counterdetection than being anywhere within MAD or acoustic distance. I believe there should be significant risk in being at PD, and so this is one way of addressing both the mast issue and the inability to see submarines underwater. The 2nm in good weather is not that much greater than one would see submarines in optimal conditions (at least according to some sources...) and the 1nm or so the submarines would be detected in bad conditions would strictly represent mast detection or the wake made by the sail/masts. On the other hand, for the bubbleheads, one consequence of the way I am redoing the missile launch transients to give TIW's is that helos and aircraft will once again be detectable on submarine sonars, and most likely at ranges greater than the ability of the helo or aircraft to be able to detect you at PD (I have yet to work out the details of this aspect of it), so if you get spotted, that's because you didn't check your sonar, or got "overflown by a low-flying multi-engined turboprop." :p Oh, also, I'm going to add sonobuoy splashes... they'll be quiet and almost impossible to distinguish on russian sonar, but at least they will be there. I'm open to any and all feedback about these features. Cheers, David __________________ LW Last edited by LuftWolf; 07-19-06 at 01:34 AM.

07-20-06, 06:40 AM	#8
goldorak Admiral Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 2,320 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Edit : The issue (non detectability of masts by surface ships) is not to be considered a bug. case closed. Last edited by goldorak; 07-20-06 at 01:44 PM.

07-20-06, 07:58 AM	#9
DivingWind Engineer Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Lithuania Posts: 211 Downloads: 7 Uploads: 0	Sounds great! Keep up the good work! __________________

07-20-06, 07:59 AM	#10
Phullbrick Seaman Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: France Posts: 42 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	too bad I remember I read a couple of days ago that some recent furtive frigates can get radar profils as low as a submarine with all its mats raised, too bad we have this bug here which prevent us from doing like in real. Plus, this is one of the OHP role (asw) which can't be done : I'm sure less submarine would go to surface to fire sam if they knew the OHP could already detect them when they are at PD looking above water before they surface. __________________

07-19-06, 01:57 AM	#2
goldorak Admiral Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 2,320 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I can only express my appreciation for your work, you're THE MAN LUFTWOLF. At least now subs won't be "invisible" while being near the surface, this for me as a p-3 or mh-60 player from time to time is really really good news. It makes playing those units less frustrating.

07-19-06, 04:58 AM	#3
Mau Sonar Guy Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 382 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	Looks very exciting!!!! Continue your outstansing work Luftwolf Your the best!!! Mau

07-19-06, 02:36 PM	#5
PeriscopeDepth Sea Lord Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Pacific NW Posts: 1,894 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	I like it LW, a lot. PD