Is this the beginning...

[mapuc]

....of armageddon, that we are witness to, in the middle east??

Markus

[Torplexed]

NOOOOOO! I can take Bruce Willis, but not Ben Affleck

I knew there was a reason why they got the shuttle working again recently.

[SkvyWvr]

Originally Posted by Torplexed

NOOOOOO! I can take Bruce Willis, but not Ben Affleck

I knew there was a reason why they got the shuttle working again recently.

I could however deal with Liv Tyler

[TteFAboB]

Agreed. Ben Affleck should be donated for dissection to the Martians.

But there's no armageddon without nukes, in the movie or in the middle east, and none of the players involved have a nuke, hehe.

[bradclark1]

No, but it will be interesting to see if it draws insurgents away from Iraq. :hmm:

[August]

Originally Posted by TteFAboB

Agreed. Ben Affleck should be donated for dissection to the Martians.

Agreed but Liv Tyler is mega hot in that movie. Oh to be that animal cracker!

[scandium]

Originally Posted by August

Agreed but Liv Tyler is mega hot in that movie. Oh to be that animal cracker!

Do yourself a favour and "rent/buy" One Night at McCool's; its a half decent movie anyway, but in it she sets the sexual godess standard.

[August]

Originally Posted by scandium

Do yourself a favour and "rent/buy" One Night at McCool's; its a half decent movie anyway, but in it she sets the sexual godess standard.

I've already seen it. Unfortunately she's an evil sex goddess in that movie. Broke my heart it did...

[scandium]

Originally Posted by TteFAboB

But there's no armageddon without nukes, in the movie or in the middle east, and none of the players involved have a nuke, hehe.

Israel has nukes. Not officially, but never the same the matter of them possessing them is something there is little doubt over. They probably don't have anything of the ICBM variety, but from their location you don't ICBMs to flatten the middle east.

Personally I'm a little concerned, just in the geo-political sense for the purpose of this thread, with the escalating situation there. Superficially this appears to be just the usual stepped up retaliation against the Palestians, with a bit of a swipe at Lebannon thrown in for good measure. However, I'm seeing (I may elaborate on this later if nobody else does first) signs that it may expand to include Syria and possibly even Iran (much less likely but I'll get into that later too).

Could this become another 6 day war? Doubtful, Israel is not the new nation it was then and is far stronger while the other players have grown relatively weaker and more fractious, so a repeat wouldn't even last 6 days. The only broader threat lies in the Western powers or Pakistan becoming involved in the conflict, and this I think is a possibly (a small one, but possible) if it were to extend in earnesr (ie: all out war) to Syria and Iran. But who knows, probably it is nothing more than the usual ME jousting. :hmm:

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by scandium

Superficially this appears to be just the usual stepped up retaliation against the Palestians, with a bit of a swipe at Lebannon thrown in for good measure.

More idiotic rubbish, as usual, from the same dump.

Israel left every last centimeter of Gaza last summer, at the expense of destroying vibrant communities, expelling 8000 Israelis and rippping apart the country's morale and political system. Since then the Palis have done nothing but lob rockets into Israel town and communities, stock up Gaza with more weapons and munitions than were smuggled in there over the last 40 years, and continually tried infiltrating into Israel to kill our soldiers and citizens.

Israel withdrew completely from Lebanon 6 years ago and foolishly allowed the Iranian and Syrian backed Hazb'Allah to stock 10s of thousands of rockets, kidnap and kill our soliders and fire at them when Iran or Syria need something to distract international pressure on them.

Now, our soldiers are killed and kidnapped by terrorists infiltrating from both Gaza and Lebanon and you stupidly think this is about "retaliation"?

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

More idiotic rubbish, as usual, from the same dump.

Israel left every last centimeter of Gaza last summer, at the expense of destroying vibrant communities, expelling 8000 Israelis and rippping apart the country's morale and political system. Since then the Palis have done nothing but lob rockets into Israel town and communities, stock up Gaza with more weapons and munitions than were smuggled in there over the last 40 years, and continually tried infiltrating into Israel to kill our soldiers and citizens.

Israel withdrew completely from Lebanon 6 years ago and foolishly allowed the Iranian and Syrian backed Hazb'Allah to stock 10s of thousands of rockets, kidnap and kill our soliders and fire at them when Iran or Syria need something to distract international pressure on them.

Now, our soldiers are killed and kidnapped by terrorists infiltrating from both Gaza and Lebanon and you stupidly think this is about "retaliation"?

I'm all for it. I hope Isreal levels the entire area!

-S

[aaken]

I'm really sorry to desagree, but giving my OWN and personal opinion and from a lawyer (as I am) perspective I don't see any point about invading and bombing an indipendent country (Lebanon), as it is absolutely against all the basic international law principles.

Lebanon may be an independent country but either cannot or does not want to stop Hezbollah from firing rockets at Israel. Israel just happens to defend itself against attacks from abroad. IMO they should attack Syria as well, if they have proof that Damascus is supporting Hezbollah.

[scandium]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

More idiotic rubbish, as usual, from the same dump.

And as usual you feel it necessary to preface your reply to me with unwarranted insults and barbed comments.

Israel left every last centimeter of Gaza last summer, at the expense of destroying vibrant communities, expelling 8000 Israelis and rippping apart the country's morale and political system. Since then the Palis have done nothing but lob rockets into Israel town and communities, stock up Gaza with more weapons and munitions than were smuggled in there over the last 40 years, and continually tried infiltrating into Israel to kill our soldiers and citizens.

Israel withdrew completely from Lebanon 6 years ago and foolishly allowed the Iranian and Syrian backed Hazb'Allah to stock 10s of thousands of rockets, kidnap and kill our soliders and fire at them when Iran or Syria need something to distract international pressure on them.

Now, our soldiers are killed and kidnapped by terrorists infiltrating from both Gaza and Lebanon and you stupidly think this is about "retaliation"?

You've done a lovely job of painting a very one-sided view of events there Avon.

Let me see if I can encapsulate the current events in a more balanced nutshell (curtesy of the BBC):

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5179434.stm

All quotes are taken from that article:

July 12: Hezbollah fighters based in southern Lebanon launch Katyusha rockets across the border with Israel, targeting the town of Shlomi and outposts in the Shebaa Farms area.

In a cross-border raid, guerrillas seize two Israeli soldiers before retreating back into Lebanon, insisting on a prisoner exchange and warning against confrontation. Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert describes the capture of the soldiers as "an act of war".

In response Israeli planes bomb Hezbollah positions in southern Lebanon and troops cross into southern Lebanon for the first time since the military withdrawal of 2000.

However, the troops encounter heavy resistance - eight are killed and two others are injured during fighting with Hezbollah. Israel calls up reserve troops as it pledges a swift and large-scale response to the Hezbollah attack.

Background: Hezbollah was founded in Lebanon in 1982 with the purpose to fight the IDF that at that time, and for 22 years in total, occupied Lebanon. They are considered a legitimate political party in Lebanon, which is a democratic country, and are supported, at least politically if not militarily and finacially (this is disputed) by both Iran and Syria. Of Lebanon's Parliment, the civilian wing of Hezbollah holds 14 out of 128 seats and is responsible for several development and civil service functions - but it does not control the government of Lebanon (half of Lebanon's Parlimentary seats are in fact held by Christians).

Lebanon itself, though still recovering from decades of war and occupation, has been recovering and its probably one of the few democracies in the ME and among the most free (as far as freedom goes in that part of the world). Anyway, this is background.

Summary of July 15th: Lebanese militants launch rockets at an Israel town and outposts; guerillas kidnap two IDF soldiers; ie: a border skirmish conducted by militants without the authorization of the Lebanese government. Israel responds by declaring it an "act" of war and invades Lebanon.

July 13:

After a night of Israeli air raids across southern Lebanon, Israeli jets strike the runways at Beirut's international airport in the morning, forcing the airport to close. Reports emerge of significant numbers of civilian casualties in Lebanese towns and villages close to Israeli targets, with at least 35 people reported killed.

As Israel announces an air and sea blockade of Lebanon, insisting that Hezbollah will not be allowed to return to its former position along the international border, world powers react to the escalating crisis.

The US president defends Israel's right to defend itself from attack, but France, Russia and the EU are all critical of a "disproportionate" use of force.

As night falls a rocket hits Israel's third-largest city, Haifa, although Hezbollah denies responsibility."

How does bombing the Lebanese airport get back Israel's kidnapped soldiers, and is the overwhelming use of Israeli military power as used in the bombing and invasion of the war torn fledging democracy that is Lebanon a proportional response to the actions of a handful of Lebanese guerillas?

July 14:

Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah promises "open war" against Israel after his offices in Beirut are bombed.

The strikes are part of Israel's ongoing operation against targets across Lebanon.

Bridges, roads and fuel depots are hit, with new strikes against Beirut airport. The number of Lebanese civilians killed in the strikes rises above 50, and the crisis continues to concern international powers.

The UN Security Council in an emergency meeting calls for an end to the Israeli operation, saying it is causing the death of innocent civilians.

Iran's president warns that any Israeli attack on Syria, seen as a sponsor of Hezbollah, will provoke a "fierce response".

No stirring of the cauldron that is the Middle East to be seen here, nope. And despite the wishes of the UNSC - the US, UK, France, Germany, and Russia - it is only Israel's right to use the full force of its military to kill Lebanese civilians and destroy the country's infrastructure, and to hell with what the rest of the world thinks.

July 15:

Israel expands its strikes in Lebanon, attacking a large number of targets including, for the first time, the northern port city of Tripoli.

Eighteen Lebanese fleeing a village are killed when their vehicles are struck with missiles on the road to the southern city of Tyre.

The headquarters of Hezbollah are destroyed in southern Beirut.

Hezbollah responds by firing rockets on the town of Tiberias in its deepest attack into Israel so far.

Israel recovers the body of one of four sailors missing after a Hezbollah strike on a navy vessel off the Lebanese coast.

Arab League Secretary General Amr Moussa says the Middle East peace process is dead and calls on the UN Security Council to tackle the crisis.

Lebanon's PM says his country is a "disaster zone" and calls for international help.
Speaking ahead of the G8 meeting in St Petersburg , US President George W Bush blames Hezbollah for the crisis and urges Syria to put pressure on the militants.

His host, Russian President Vladimir Putin, is more critical of Israel's massive bombing campaign, saying that the "use of force should be balanced".

For all the ordinance dropped in Isrrael's "massive bombing campaign" they've finally recovered one of their missing soldiers - or rather his body. Yep, this brilliant campaign is yielding the desired results of freeing their kidnapped troops alright.

July 16:

Israeli air-raids kill at least 23 people in southern Lebanon, including 16 in the city of Tyre. Seven Canadians of Lebanese origin are killed in a village about 33 miles (50 kilometres) south of Beirut while on a family holiday.

Hezbollah rockets kill eight Israelis in the coastal city of Haifa in the worst attack on Israel since the fighting started.

People living as far south as Tel Aviv are told to be on the alert.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert says the Haifa attack will have "far-reaching consequences".

Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah says the battle against Israel is "just at the beginning".

Iran warns Israel that any attack on Syria would incur "unimaginable losses".
Leaders of the G8 nations meeting in St Petersburg blame extremist forces for the crisis, but call on Israel to end military operations.

Seven dead Canadians, killed by an Israeli bombing raid in a country that was not at war with Israel or with anyone else. By Avon's and Israel's standard of conduct Canada, along with the full might of its NATO allies should reciprocate the favour, shouldn't it Avon? Maybe over there anyway. Civilized countries do not behave that way with their democratic neighbours. If they did, then when the allegations that the 19 9/11 hijackers had come into the US through Canada had been reported, the U.S. would have bombed Canada the next day. However in civilized countries things do not work that way; Canada took in the stranded planes on 9/11, worked within NORAD to help secure US airspace, and allied with the US in the War on Terror which we are fighting in Afghanistan.

Israel has to be the bully though and show it has the bigger dick. Screw trying to work peacefully with Lebanon toward a solution to the crisis, screw inserting covert special forces on a search and rescue mission, and screw restraint and proportionality. After all, nothing puts a stop to terrorism better than destroying one of the most progressive and democratic countries in the region and terrorizing and killing its inhabitants through the full might of the IDF. Yep, that'll teach them not to mess with Israel, since the prior war and 22 year occupation hasn't taught every single Lebanese citizen that you don't mess with Israel.

You will reap tomorrow what you sow today.

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by scandium

And as usual you feel it necessary to preface your reply to me with unwarranted insults and barbed comments.

No. It was warranted.

You've done a lovely job of painting a very one-sided view of events there Avon.

Let me see if I can encapsulate the current events in a more balanced nutshell (curtesy of the BBC):

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5179434.stm

All quotes are taken from that article:

Background: Hezbollah was founded in Lebanon in 1982 with the purpose to fight the IDF that at that time, and for 22 years in total, occupied Lebanon. They are considered a legitimate political party in Lebanon, which is a democratic country, and are supported, at least politically if not militarily and finacially (this is disputed) by both Iran and Syria. Of Lebanon's Parliment, the civilian wing of Hezbollah holds 14 out of 128 seats and is responsible for several development and civil service functions - but it does not control the government of Lebanon (half of Lebanon's Parlimentary seats are in fact held by Christians).

Lebanon itself, though still recovering from decades of war and occupation, has been recovering and its probably one of the few democracies in the ME and among the most free (as far as freedom goes in that part of the world). Anyway, this is background.

Summary of July 15th: Lebanese militants launch rockets at an Israel town and outposts; guerillas kidnap two IDF soldiers; ie: a border skirmish conducted by militants without the authorization of the Lebanese government. Israel responds by declaring it an "act" of war and invades Lebanon.

Border skirmishes and kidnapping another country's soldiers are an act of war.

All that quoting for nothing!

Does it get more exciting than this? Let's see.......................

How does bombing the Lebanese airport get back Israel's kidnapped soldiers, and is the overwhelming use of Israeli military power as used in the bombing and invasion of the war torn fledging democracy that is Lebanon a proportional response to the actions of a handful of Lebanese guerillas?

Oooh, the poor warn-torn fledgling democracy - controlled by Syria and Iran. Oooooooh I'm gonna cry! Boo hoo!

Who said anything about proportional, the stupidest leftist word on the Internet at the moment. Oh, was that a barb? Sorry.

I understand that aiports are sometimes used by military forces. But that's just lil' ol' me doing some fancy thinking there.

Moving right along...............

No stirring of the cauldron that is the Middle East to be seen here, nope. And despite the wishes of the UNSC - the US, UK, France, Germany, and Russia - it is only Israel's right to use the full force of its military to kill Lebanese civilians and destroy the country's infrastructure, and to hell with what the rest of the world thinks.

If the shoe fits. And look at all the hypocrites. US? Russia? We don't come near their massive and non-specific attacks when they deem them necesary (Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya)

As for France, they can go to hell.

Don't tell us how to take care of ourselves. You've caused enough damage already.

For all the ordinance dropped in Isrrael's "massive bombing campaign" they've finally recovered one of their missing soldiers - or rather his body. Yep, this brilliant campaign is yielding the desired results of freeing their kidnapped troops alright.

You've got the wrong soldier. But why trouble yourself with facts and accuracy.

Seven dead Canadians, killed by an Israeli bombing raid in a country that was not at war with Israel or with anyone else. By Avon's and Israel's standard of conduct Canada, along with the full might of its NATO allies should reciprocate the favour, shouldn't it Avon?

When you invent the magic weapon that can identify innocent Canadians, call us. We'll be happy to use it. Till then, these are the tragedies which war brings, a war started by Lebanon. Please address our neighbors to the north.

Maybe over there anyway. Civilized countries do not behave that way with their democratic neighbours.

Civilized democratic countries don't have parties in Parliament calling for the annihilation of their neighboring country, provided with sophisticated weaponry from rogue regimes including Iran, Syria and North Korea and jump into other countries to kill soldier, and civilians and kidnap them for ransom, too.

Thank G-d normal people do not want to live in your lunatic world.

If they did, then when the allegations that the 19 9/11 hijackers had come into the US through Canada had been reported, the U.S. would have bombed Canada the next day.

Is Al Qaeda an accepted party of Canada's government, given support, sanctuary and weapons by Canada? Just let us know.

However in civilized countries things do not work that way; Canada took in the stranded planes on 9/11, worked within NORAD to help secure US airspace, and allied with the US in the War on Terror which we are fighting in Afghanistan.

Go Canada!

Israel has to be the bully though and show it has the bigger dick. Screw trying to work peacefully with Lebanon toward a solution to the crisis, screw inserting covert special forces on a search and rescue mission, and screw restraint and proportionality. After all, nothing puts a stop to terrorism better than destroying one of the most progressive and democratic countries in the region and terrorizing and killing its inhabitants through the full might of the IDF. Yep, that'll teach them not to mess with Israel, since the prior war and 22 year occupation hasn't taught every single Lebanese citizen that you don't mess with Israel.

You will reap tomorrow what you sow today.

Indeed we will. We reaped yesterday what was sown in Israel's retreat from S. Lebanon 6 years ago. Thanks for the lesson!

(What a waste of pixels!)

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by mapuc

....of armageddon, that we are witness to, in the middle east??

Markus

Nope - read revelation - a lot of crap hasn't happened yet