The future of europe?/Islam threads (Merged)

[Fish]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...0267_1,00.html

[STEED]

Immigration is out of control in the U.K the immigration service have no idea of the numbers unlike are stupid government, Tony Blair who claims it's under control. The U.K will continual to go down the tubes unless less we get a strong leader who is not afraid to stand up, as for the article it's all happening now and will only get worst.

[Skybird]

Latest "Micro Census" (sort of a miniature census) in Germany from some days ago showed that 20% of people living in Germany are of not-German origin now, some having but most having not German passports. That is far more than was expected. Every German today - is not really a German. The growth rate of Muslim sub-cultures also showed to be much higher than official policy expected to see. Especially this news is tried to be hidden now. The scandal accoridng to the left is not that immigration level and Islamic expansion is so ghigh and so fast, but that it is not supported by giving them passports much earlier. Serious, that is the dispute currently.


Currently, around every fifth person in France is not only not originally French, but Muslim. Add to these the non-Muslim foreigners. every third baby being born is said to be a Muslim baby currently. It was calculated some days ago that in 40 years at the latest the vast Majority of population in France will not be European French anymore, but will be Muslim immigrants. Germany is not far behind.

It was said some days ago that Norway currently comes that quickly under Pakistani influence that currently more planes fly from Norway to Pakistan, than from Norway to North America.

It was reported in news reports of the last 5-7 days that Italy and Spain additionally to the already coming immigrants have to expect more immigration from Africa, not longer counting by the tens and hundreds of thousands, but by the many milliosn over the next years. The vast majority of these will be Muslim.

Yesterday the new head of the major British Muslim association was quoted in an interview where he used superficially logical argument how Muslim arranged marriages could help the young and confused ones to have better marriages and less divorces, and how Muslim ethics would help to strengthen Britsh ethics and moral values. He also said in open and very clear words without hiding that he wants the British to adopt to Muslim habits and rules, that certain aspects of public life should be tailored to Muslim likes and dislikes and that a stronger Islam in this way would help Britain. I must admit, that guy is clever. He made it sound logical, and sweet as honey. An extremely dangerous man. the political left will love him.

The EU ministres today again have shown rubber spines towards Turkey and have brought down Cypriotic resistance to Turkey’s refusal to recognize Cyprus. The ultimate precondition that Turkey until this date today has to normalize it’s relations to Cyprus has been given up without need and without compensation, becasue Turkey did not compoly. That is the kind of negotiations that I feared and said so one year ago. A clear, total, and complete failure for the West. Why do they keep on the negotiation process anyway? Obviously only to blind the public. The outcome already is decided.

Last week the major economical association of turkey have attacked Eogan and has accused him of hindering secular reforms in Turkey, but spending almost all his time now with pushing a hidden fundamentalistic islamic agenda that now is not so hidden anymore. One must be blind or an idiot not to see that Erdogan is not only a “moderate” fundamentalist, but a pro-Islamic hardliner. Currently the Turkish military is the only thing that is standing stubbornly between the fundamentalists, and the weakening and slwoly retreating secular system in Turkey. When the military stepped in two times in last weeks to ban pro-fundamentalist tendencies, it was sharply attacked by Erdogan, and more importantly - it immediately got criticised by the idiots-in-chief of Western governments as well. They want it to retreat and allow “democracy” – which essentially means open ways and no resistance to fundamental Islam in Turkey, and generally in Europe as well. Democracy and Islam seem to be very much ojne and the same thing for a major part of European politicians today. Die werden sich noch wundern.

Birthrates amongst Muslim colonists that have already taken ground in Europe are pushing Islamic population sizes fastly, while birth rates of native and non-Muslim europeans are declining.

The situation compares to that of Byzantium. While West Rome was busy with Middle and Northern Europe, Byzantium, after the split, suffered from two major crisis that finally sealed it'S fall. First, an ever growing paralysis of adminstration and inner policy, coming from an exploding bureaucracy that did not fight but increase the grwoing heap of laws and needed reforms that were not executed. that way, it strangled itself and lost fiancial freedom to act efficiently, and tune it'S administrative structure ( a failure that compares to that of the Osmans later, who showed the same inability). The second was the many decades of wars with the Sassanides from Persia that pushed into the ex-roman sphere of influence, a war that Byzantium was less and lesser able to fight. That way weakend in two ways, the attack for conquest by Islam was guaranteed to succeed.

The Eu is very much like Byzantium. We too have a monumental bureaucracy that hinders the state more and more, and fiancial debts and dependencies make politicians sign more and more stupid compromises that in then long run omnly make it worse. We too loose freedom to act efficiently and do what needs to be done and stop those that try to conquer our homes and places, with masses of immigrants as the primary weapon to overload our national integrity and make our social and cultural systems brake down.

Some pirates in the Mediterranean are my smallest concern, seen that way. They only add to the overall mess. I'm sure that some uncorrectable good-doers in our middle will even hinder us to fight with weapons against such pirates once they have become the rule.

You know what? Slowly but surely I come to the conclusion that this Europe is really not worth to be defended anymore. It stinks like a rotten cadaver, and attracts all kinds of carrion eaters for that reason. It strangles itself, and with it's last breath it calls: "Hooray, we are fantastic!" Maybe it deserves nothing better, then. A victim of aggression that does not defend itself, is said to be prey.

Innumerable centuries that led to cultural, legal and philosophical acchievements that gave reason for hope and optimism - but all in vain. Our ancestors must turn in their graves.

[Torplexed]

Terry Jones, the former Monty Python star, meanwhile, has spoken up for the barbarians’ technological and social achievements in a television series and has written:

"We actually owe far more to the so-called ‘barbarians’ than we do to the men in togas."


This from a member of the comedy troupe who gave us 'Spam". :p

[Yahoshua]

good post skybird....

[The Avon Lady]

Skybird, your post's text is showing up in blue. For those of us using the default forum skin, it's difficult to read. Could you please remove any font or color related tags?

On the subject: Waiting for Churchill or Waiting for Godot?

[Yahoshua]

That was an excellent article Avon Lady......

Europe is coming to her senses, and she will wake to realize her terrible nightmare.

Perhaps a Churchill will come along, but in todays' world, after the smoke has cleared, will that Churhill be the one we want to keep in power or will he become the sole domineering power over all of Europe? If that is even a possibility to decide his position at that point.


It is time to end the war.

[tycho102]

Originally Posted by Skybird

You know what? Slowly but surely I come to the conclusion that this Europe is really not worth to be defended anymore. It stinks like a rotten cadaver, and attracts all kinds of carrion eaters for that reason. It strangles itself, and with it's last breath it calls: "Hooray, we are fantastic!" Maybe it deserves nothing better, then. A victim of aggression that does not defend itself, is said to be prey.

Replace "Europe" with "France", and that's about the same conclusion at which I have arrived.

Addendum:
When the Illumaniti divest their wealth to other countries, to protect it from the conquerers, make sure that only French women can lay claim to it after liberation, and accept the first god damn claims that come through. Whatever French woman applies for the account, just hand her the money wrapped in fancy shoeboxes with a bow on the top. If it's a French man, sic the dogs on him and call the SWAT team.

[STEED]

I found this piece of news it's a bit old by a few days.

Jewish leaders buoyed by EU interfaith meeting
Joel clark / JTA, THE JERUSALEM POST Jun. 4, 2006

Jewish leaders said they were optimistic following a high-profile interfaith meeting held by the European Union last week.
The Tuesday meeting was attended by Jewish, Christian and Muslim leaders from across Europe, as well as Buddhist spiritual leader, the Dalai Lama.
Fifteen delegates were invited to Brussels to represent their faith communities in a discussion focused on the role religious communities should play in the promotion of freedom, democracy and human rights across Europe.
Organized by the EU Bureau of European Policy Advisers, the meeting was chaired by European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso, together with Wolfgang Schussel, chancellor of Austria, which currently holds the rotating presidency of the EU.
The event follows a similar gathering of religious leaders at the European Commission, the EU's executive wing, in July 2005, but this was the first time that such an initiative has had the support of the EU presidency.
Europe's Jewish community was represented by Chief Rabbi Rene Gutman of Strasbourg and Bas-Rhin in France and Chief Rabbi Albert Guigui of Brussels, both members of the Conference of European Rabbis, the organization which coordinates Europe's chief rabbis.
Barroso hailed the meeting as a "very important moment," adding that dialogue between faiths was a "vital condition in understanding their differences." Delegates spent three hours discussing issues affecting their communities in front of senior members of the European Commission, including the employment, justice and education commissioners, as well as Barroso and Schussel.
The meeting was also attended by Iranian-born Shi'ite leader Ayatollah Seyyed Abbas Ghaemmaghami, who expressed a willingness to work with Jewish leaders on common issues such as ritual slaughter.
Guigui, also permanent representative of the Conference of European Rabbis to the European Union, was positive about the meeting.
"The fact that the European Union now has a clear structure for interfaith dialogue gives us great hope that we can continue these meetings into the future," he told JTA.
Guigui added that he and Gutman had raised several key issues affecting the European Jewish community, notably the rise of anti-Semitism across Europe.
"Anti-Semitism is a very deep problem for the Jewish communities of Europe and the president said that they are preparing an EU forum to fight that phenomenon," he said.
Imam Abduljalil Sajid, a representative of the UKbased Muslim Council for Religious and Racial Harmony, said the meeting had shown a lot of "hopes and aspirations" among faith leaders.
Although there was nothing new in the gathering of religious leaders, Sajid said, the presence of such influential European politicians made it a "historic event." "There's no alternative to dialogue, but what we need now is actions to follow it all up."
Philip Carmel, director of international relations at the Conference of European Rabbis, said the meeting had been a real landmark.
"Bringing together religious leaders from all the monotheistic faiths of Europe under the flag of the European Union is something that I regard as very positive," he said. "It gives a sign that the EU is committed to real interfaith dialogue and to integrating people of faith into the European discussion to build a better society."

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...cle%2FShowFull

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by STEED

I found this piece of news it's a bit old by a few days.

A skit for the gullible.

[joea]

Originally Posted by tycho102

Replace "Europe" with "France", and that's about the same conclusion at which I have arrived.

Addendum:
When the Illumaniti divest their wealth to other countries, to protect it from the conquerers, make sure that only French women can lay claim to it after liberation, and accept the first god damn claims that come through. Whatever French woman applies for the account, just hand her the money wrapped in fancy shoeboxes with a bow on the top. If it's a French man, sic the dogs on him and call the SWAT team.

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

[Skybird]

Since it was asked in two parrallel threads why these threads are there and why one should want to be so "intolerant" and criticise Islam and prefer ignorrance over "multi-culti", I suggest the following as an answer. By content it could have been from me, I agree with it very much.

I have massively criticised Bush and Neocons and the gap between American ideals and reality of American policy in earlier years. I was heavily attacked for that, but no one ever threatened to hurt or to kill me. I have criticised Christian sects and churches repeatedly and substantially, but never someone gave me reason to think he might visit me with a knife between his teeth.

It is no hobby for me, but in this forum we do speak abiut these things as well, and when in my real life I get asked, or someone tells nonsnes on these things in my presence, I do not let it go by untreated. It is important, it is about what I call my home in a wider understanding, and the future of our culture. You can expect that in my mothertongue I am more flexible and competent to express my thoughts. And more clearly.

As I have indicated earlier this year, in January I received the first paper/mail-letter ever where I was cursed for my "lies" and "attacks" and "distortions" of Muhammad and Islam, and was warned to let it be else my life may be shorter than I expect. Obviously it has come from a Muslim not from this board, since none here knows my adress, but some Muslim who happened to hear me and knows me from my real life. In February, I received the second of such a letter. I feel honoured. Usually you read in the newspaper about such things happening. Or is intimidating more regular today, even intimidation by our own governments? The editor of the conservative Brussel Journal, with whom I agree sometimes, sometimes not, is threatend with prosecution for the second time within weeks. First he was accused of racism and inhuman intolerance when criticising the pro-Islam policy of the EU, now they try to silence him with accusing him of violating his responsebility to edcuate his youngest children, because he is practicing home-teaching, which is allowed in Belgium, although rarely practiced. His two or three older children currently have made it as far as up to university. Obviously he cannot have tought them too bad. State controllers have tested them, and found them to be fully educated.

I am not afraid of this mail I received, it just justifies my opinion on Islam, and has risen my alert status a bit, and made me even angrier of the stupidity of people embracing Islam and mixing up tolerance with submission, multi-culti with Islam, racism with civilizational self-defense. That I get called a fascist some weeks ago, an intolerant and bigot, a phobic and whatever it is, I am used to. I got called by the same names whan I attacked the Iraq war in 2003. And back then the general atmosphere here was much more aggressive, and much hotter.

And just for the record, the old members do already know this, but there are some newcomers that have not stayed long enough to have red aboiut me in the past: I know a little bit about Islam by own experience. I lived and worked half a year in Iran, half a year in central and east Anatolia, and for another couple of months I have travelled several other Muslim countries. I red more than just three or four books about Islam, my shelf is nicely covered with stuff about it'S history, sociology, policy, and aboiut Koran, Hadith and the biography of Muhammad, the historically true figure I mean. If you think I just snap up some headlines and mirror them, and express some frustration about the EU, you are wrong. I attack Islam not becaue I do not know it. I attack it just exactly because I have learned about it.

Stop accommodating and tell the truth

Jihad Watch Board Vice President Hugh Fitzgerald offers an alternate plan to dhimmi governing officials:



A state policy of trying in every way to accommodate Muslims, including the policy of not offending them -- or rather, not doing anything that they could conceivably claim offends them -- is madness. It is obvious that Muslim groups, Muslim spokesman, Muslim individuals, are trying to force the Western world not to see what is in front of it. When appeals to the Idols of the Age ("Everyone Wants the Same Thing," "Everyone Is Exactly Alike") don't do it, other methods are chosen. These include murder of the outspoken (Pim Fortuyn or Theo Van Gogh) which unfortunately tends to make some Infidels suspicious of Muslims. It includes threats of murder, which unfortunately do not always work (Geert Wildres, Ayaan Hirsi Ali). It includes lawsuits and threats of lawsuits, including those the State brings (the trial of Oriana Fallaci). It includes outrage and hints of economic repercussions (Arab governments might pull those glossy ads), which can cause critics to lose their jobs (Will Cummins at The Telegraph).

The main thing is to shut those Infidels up, to force them to watch every word.

But this is madness. This is not only wrong, this is the very opposite of what should be done. Everywhere Infidels should demonstrate, repeatedly, ostentatiously, that they have studied the Qur'an and Hadith, and that they have read a sufficient amount about Jihad-conquest and the subjugation of non-Muslims, over 1350 years, so that they cannot be fooled. The mere presence of a single Infidel who knows what he is talking about at one of those Mosque Outreach sessions, can destroy its value to the Muslims who are attempting to inveigle the unwary Infidels. Knowledge is everything; knowledge and the ability to articulate. Those Infidels who wish to carefully regulate the language in which Islam is discussed, because they have been told to do so by apologists for Islam (in many cases, Muslim propagandists and agitators; in other cases, non-Muslim collaborators; in still other cases, simpletons in positions of authority) are simply choosing to deny what Islam teaches, what attitudes it clearly inculcates, and what has been the perceived behavior of Muslims, animated by the immutable texts, from Spain to the East Indies over 1350 years. One can ignore all that and keep hoping and wishing, or one can decide to pull the pillow off of one's head and face the day, however disturbing it may be. The most intelligent thing to do is for Muslims to be put constantly on the defensive, to be constantly made aware that non-Muslims no longer will accept the nonsense about a "religion." Call it a belief-system with elements of worship and a great deal of everything else -- a political system, a social system -- one which is based on a clear division of the Universe between Believer and Infidel. Let Islam be criticized, let Islam be mocked. There will be a gigantic campaign, by Muslims -- there is such a campaign, uncoordinated, spontaneous, by all kinds of Muslims everywhere, to protect the Faith from those who do not discuss it exactly as Believers think they should -- which is exactly in the way that Believers do. But as Ali Sina says, constant mockery, constant awareness of Islam as a totalitarian system, an awareness displayed on every occasion by Infidels, will force certain changes, not least among Muslims of good will and open mind -- or at least stop the onward march of Islam.


Muslims are intent on remaining in the Lands of the Infidels and indeed on swelling their own ranks and power until they will not have to worry about what Infidels think at all. But at this point they still have to worry. They have to worry about whether or not the Infidels will come to their senses sufficiently, will look into history, and will look simply around the world to see how non-Muslims are treated in Egypt and Saudi Arabia, in Iran and Sudan, in Pakistan and Bangladesh and Indonesia, in Malaysia and Afghanistan, and everywhere that Islam prevails and has not been systematically contained either by local despots (Ataturk in Turkey, Bourguiba in Tunisia) and their successors, or opposed by a very large and powerful non-Muslim population (the Maronites in Lebanon until recent decades).

Tell the truth about Islam. Tell it all the time, in different keys. Show that you know what you are talking about. Modify, at times, the way you tell those truths to fit the audience you have, but keep it up. That is the way to make Infidels safer. And it is also the way to hold out hope for those people who, born into Islam, yet not liking it, wishing to escape from it, secretly hope the Infidels will limit its influence, will force changes upon it or at least the perceived need for change to the teachings, and thus the texts, of Islam.

To limit what is said, to be so solicitous of those who do not wish us well, who wish us, our laws, our customs, our understandings, our freedoms, ill, who in many cases are delighted with whatever suffering they can inflict on Infidels anywhere, is crazy. We should worry not about offending Muslims, but about whether or not we have effectively conveyed to them that we understand Islam, and that we understand that it is only those Muslims who do not accept its full teachings -- that is, the bad Muslims -- with whom we can conceivably coexist. And that furthermore we cannot always tell which Muslim is a lax, unobservant, "bad" Muslim, and which is not, nor which children or grandchildren of "bad" Muslims will revert, for one reason or another, to the original, full-bodied, dangerous version.

To engage in self-censorship, to prevent Islam from being freely discussed using terms that are neither obscene nor vicious but only, unfortunately, grimly accurate, to worry about offending Muslim sensibilities, which only promotes (in advance of and in the absence of Muslim rule) the dhimmi mentality, the very theme of Bat Ye'or's Eurabia -- all this will do nothing to protect Infidels. It will do nothing to modify the beliefs of Muslims, nor to encourage the camp of those Muslims who wish that other Muslims would recognize the dangers of what Islam teaches, and work to somehow modify it. If Infidels will not tell the truth about Islam, those would-be "reformers" within Islam will have no one to point to, no way of creating the necessary atmosphere of defensiveness and alarm which is the only thing likely to force at least some Muslims to realize, and then to admit to, some of the dangers and faults of Islam.

Too many people say they get easily bored by something if it is repeated. Too many just stanad in silence and prefer to followe their every day routine, assuming all will be good, the others will care. Too many people think it is not up to them to stand up against aggression, and defend what one is calling "home" and "civilization"

Too few defenders to win this confrontation with Islam, therefore.

[The Avon Lady]

Bah! I linked to that article yesterday!:rotfl:

[Skybird]

Somehow you are always a second ahead of me.

Any chance that you do play chess...?

Wanted to have done it yesterday, but football was against it.

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Somehow you are always a second ahead of me.

Any chance that you do play chess...?

Wanted to have done it yesterday, but football was against it.

I don't play chess and I don't like football.

No wonder I'm ahead of you!