LuftWolf and Amizaur's Realism Mod Poll #11: Adv. Torpedoes

LuftWolf · 05-06-06, 01:34 PM

The ability exists to make substantial changes to torpedo behavior.

My question is, how great is the desire to complicate gameplay?

Advanced Wire Control: the ability to change speed, acoustic mode, search pattern, and depth for wire guided torpedoes.

Sensor Modelling: Adding wakehoming capability to the UGST, TEST-71ME-NK, and USET-80 that can be selected at preset, removing the snake pattern from the ADCAP and replacing it with a single beam sweeping search sensor, also, making sure the torpedo sensors are properly sensitivity limited rather than hardcap limited.

Restricting the length of wire guided torpedoes to 10-13nm (depending the on the torpedo) would mean that subs would have to be very close to each other to engage in the standard wireguided torpedo play common now, but it would also make salvos at long range much less effective, as those SW players could can no longer send four torpedoes in from all directions at 16nm. Honestly, I think this is the biggest gameplay change, aside from the torpedo physics.

Advanced Torpedo Physics: Slower torpedoes run farther, non-electric torpedoes fired deeper run slower and shorter (about 10 kts slower at max depth 600m for UGST for example). This would substantially change the way the game is played in ASW, and make electric torpedoes like the MK50, USET-80/Yu-8, and TEST-71 much more important.

Molon Labe · 05-06-06, 02:00 PM

This all sounds great to me, except for what you told me about the wire lengths. Since the proposed mod measures the distance from the launch point, a sub that is running will get a few extra miles of guidance, and a sub following the torp or resteering it at a nearby target will get ripped off.

I'd a bit worried about a 40 knot UGST at 600m trying to catch a 37 knot Seawolf, but with the advanced control mod, this might not be an issue that can't be dealt with tactically.

Is the UMP-1UE electric?

LuftWolf · 05-06-06, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Is the UMP-1UE electric?

Yes.

LuftWolf · 05-06-06, 02:12 PM

Quote:

This all sounds great to me, except for what you told me about the wire lengths. Since the proposed mod measures the distance from the launch point, a sub that is running will get a few extra miles of guidance, and a sub following the torp or resteering it at a nearby target will get ripped off

That is assuming the wire length is always the distance between the sub and the torpedo.

By that logic, the wire would have to retract when the torpedo closes on the launching sub.

Who here knows how the torpedo wire rigging works in a basic sense?

Deathblow · 05-06-06, 02:14 PM

Sounds intriguing. I had no idea that electric torpedoes didn't suffer from speed reductions at depth... wonder why? :hmm:

The torpedo physics sound great, it would certainly make the torp attacks and evasion more intricate (with deep diving evasion more of a benifit for subs). As well as create an additional benifit for slow torp speeds. It would also make the torpedo performance of some "sprinter" torps like the Spearfish able to be modeled more accurately because its torp speeds are toted to be 70knots with a 12nm range, but can actually reach 25-30nm at slow speeds. Though tricking the AI to make the right setting is probably a completely different problem. Anyway, physics sound great.

Restricting the wire length sounds great. Is is possilbe to "speed restrict" it too? As in if the sub breaks 30knots the wire breaks?

As far as removing the ADCAP snake. One thing that will complicate this is that the lack of a snaking movement is the only way a player knows that his torpedoes are homing on something. Otherwise we really can't tell what the torps are doing because they don't have wirefeedback as in RL (due to it being bugged toward a cheat). If the ADCAP doesn't snake it will probably cause more problems than worth it.

As far advanced wire control. This could be tricky dependent on how cumbersome the command inputs would become.

Deathblow · 05-06-06, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LuftWolf

Who here knows how the torpedo wire rigging works in a basic sense?

You mean ingame or in RL?

LuftWolf · 05-06-06, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deathblow

Restricting the wire length sounds great. Is is possilbe to "speed restrict" it too? As in if the sub breaks 30knots the wire breaks?

As far advanced wire control. This could be tricky dependent on how cumbersome the command inputs would become.

You cannot referrence objects in the doctrine other than targets... we've been through this.

The wire control has already been done by Amizaur. http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopi...=48430&start=0

LuftWolf · 05-06-06, 02:23 PM

[quote="LuftWolf"]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deathblow

Restricting the wire length sounds great. Is is possilbe to "speed restrict" it too? As in if the sub breaks 30knots the wire breaks?

quote]

You cannot referrence objects in the doctrine other than targets... we've been through this.

I might be able to do something silly with the sensors though...

Deathblow · 05-06-06, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LuftWolf

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deathblow

Restricting the wire length sounds great. Is is possilbe to "speed restrict" it too? As in if the sub breaks 30knots the wire breaks?

As far advanced wire control. This could be tricky dependent on how cumbersome the command inputs would become.

You cannot referrence objects in the doctrine other than targets... we've been through this.

No, not thru the Torpedo or TorpHoming Doctrine, but through one of the "Sub" doctrines. If sub breaks speed x = close outer doors (approximately equivalent to a wire break). That is, if their is a way to command "close outer doors" in the first place... and who knows if its even possilbe to effect playerplatforms through a doctrine anyway... probably something that could only be a SCS patch, not a doctrine tweak.

EDIT: :hmm:

LuftWolf · 05-06-06, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deathblow

No, not thru the Torpedo or TorpHoming Doctrine, but through one of the "Sub" doctrines. If sub breaks speed x = close outer doors (approximately equivalent to a wire break). That is, if their is a way to command "close outer doors" in the first place... and who knows if its even possilbe to effect playerplatforms through a doctrine anyway... probably something that could only be a SCS patch, not a doctrine tweak.

EDIT: :hmm:

Nope... we can't do this.

If there were a command to reference variables in the target doctrines from the platform doctrine this would be easy, but GetEntVar only works from the platform doctrine to the target doctrines.

Wildcat · 05-06-06, 03:25 PM

All of the above sounds good, but I do wonder how torpedo depth is going to be controlled considering there is no interface for controlling torpedo depth in the sim once the torpedo has left the tube.

LuftWolf · 05-06-06, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LuftWolf

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deathblow

As far advanced wire control. This could be tricky dependent on how cumbersome the command inputs would become.

The wire control has already been done by Amizaur. http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopi...=48430&start=0

WolfyBrandon · 05-06-06, 03:28 PM

Advanced Wire Control: the ability to change speed, acoustic mode, search pattern, and depth for wire guided torpedoes.

I think that would be really nice to have, just not sure if I like the enable / pre enable way to do it. If its the only way this could be done I could live with it. I tryed Amizaur's mod and it was kinda screwy for me, I think it was because I didnt give it the 1 second to let it refresh or something.

Sensor Modelling: Adding wakehoming capability to the UGST, TEST-71ME-NK, and USET-80 that can be selected at preset

Yes, I think adding that is a must, for both realism and gameplay!

Removing the snake pattern from the ADCAP and replacing it with a single beam sweeping search sensor. Also, making sure the torpedo sensors are properly sensitivity limited rather than hardcap limited.

I agree with deathblow. I don't think removing the snake pattern would be a good idea. It would make it confusing when the torp has a lock when it just runs in a straight line. About the sensitivity part, not exactually sure what that that is about... but "properly sensitivity limited" sounds better than "hardcap limited" to me.

Restricting the length of wire guided torpedoes to 10-13nm (depending the on the torpedo) would mean that subs would have to be very close to each other to engage in the standard wireguided torpedo play common now, but it would also make salvos at long range much less effective, as those SW players could can no longer send four torpedoes in from all directions at 16nm. Honestly, I think this is the biggest gameplay change, aside from the torpedo physics.

If realistic, I think this would be kind of neat to have with the inclusion of the Advanced Wire Control. Meaning you could only use its advanced wire features in short range combat. On the other hand the long range salvos would be a problem. The wire could be cut before you want to Enable it. Not sure if making the wire short range would be a good idea or not at this point since like you said there is tactics revolving around useing the wire at long range.

Advanced Torpedo Physics: Slower torpedoes run farther, non-electric torpedoes fired deeper run slower and shorter (about 10 kts slower at max depth 600m for UGST for example). This would substantially change the way the game is played in ASW, and make electric torpedoes like the MK50, USET-80/Yu-8, and TEST-71 much more important.

Slower torpedos should run farther. I don't have much expierence with the other type of torps so someone else can give their opinion on that though it sounds reasonable to me...

:hmm:
Wolfy

Deathblow · 05-06-06, 03:42 PM

Question:

Will the 10-13nm limit for the wire generate a "lost the wire tube x" to the player whenever the wire is cut?

Henson · 05-06-06, 03:50 PM

In response to the question about how the wire plays out from the tube IRL, it works as follows. The torpedo itself has a certain amount of guidance wire internal to the weapon, and inside the tube is a guidance wire dispenser with about 1/2 the amount of what is in the torpedo fuel tank.

After launch, once the wire achieves 'equilibrium' the torpedo will feed out as much wire as necessary to account for its own motion, and the wire dispenser in the tube will pay out enough to account for O/S motion. In theory the center of the wire is stationary. The reason there is less wire in the tube than there is in the torpedo fuel tank is the fact that the torpedo moves at roughly twice the speed O/S does.

View Poll Results: How extreme do you want the torpedo mods to be? (please see the message body for explanation of term
As is: general bug fixing and AI enhancement.	6	12.77%
Above with: Advanced Wire Control and Sensor Modelling	5	10.64%
Above with: Wire Lengths Limited to 10-13nm from launchpoint (reported as realistic)	7	14.89%
Above with: Advanced Torpedo Physics	29	61.70%
Voters: 47. You may not vote on this poll

05-06-06, 02:00 PM	#2
Molon Labe Silent Hunter Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Along the Watchtower Posts: 3,810 Downloads: 27 Uploads: 5	This all sounds great to me, except for what you told me about the wire lengths. Since the proposed mod measures the distance from the launch point, a sub that is running will get a few extra miles of guidance, and a sub following the torp or resteering it at a nearby target will get ripped off. I'd a bit worried about a 40 knot UGST at 600m trying to catch a 37 knot Seawolf, but with the advanced control mod, this might not be an issue that can't be dealt with tactically. Is the UMP-1UE electric? __________________

05-06-06, 03:28 PM	#13
WolfyBrandon Frogman Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: U-957: Patrol 05 In Progress... Posts: 306 Downloads: 105 Uploads: 0	Humm Advanced Wire Control: the ability to change speed, acoustic mode, search pattern, and depth for wire guided torpedoes. I think that would be really nice to have, just not sure if I like the enable / pre enable way to do it. If its the only way this could be done I could live with it. I tryed Amizaur's mod and it was kinda screwy for me, I think it was because I didnt give it the 1 second to let it refresh or something. Sensor Modelling: Adding wakehoming capability to the UGST, TEST-71ME-NK, and USET-80 that can be selected at preset Yes, I think adding that is a must, for both realism and gameplay! Removing the snake pattern from the ADCAP and replacing it with a single beam sweeping search sensor. Also, making sure the torpedo sensors are properly sensitivity limited rather than hardcap limited. I agree with deathblow. I don't think removing the snake pattern would be a good idea. It would make it confusing when the torp has a lock when it just runs in a straight line. About the sensitivity part, not exactually sure what that that is about... but "properly sensitivity limited" sounds better than "hardcap limited" to me. Restricting the length of wire guided torpedoes to 10-13nm (depending the on the torpedo) would mean that subs would have to be very close to each other to engage in the standard wireguided torpedo play common now, but it would also make salvos at long range much less effective, as those SW players could can no longer send four torpedoes in from all directions at 16nm. Honestly, I think this is the biggest gameplay change, aside from the torpedo physics. If realistic, I think this would be kind of neat to have with the inclusion of the Advanced Wire Control. Meaning you could only use its advanced wire features in short range combat. On the other hand the long range salvos would be a problem. The wire could be cut before you want to Enable it. Not sure if making the wire short range would be a good idea or not at this point since like you said there is tactics revolving around useing the wire at long range. Advanced Torpedo Physics: Slower torpedoes run farther, non-electric torpedoes fired deeper run slower and shorter (about 10 kts slower at max depth 600m for UGST for example). This would substantially change the way the game is played in ASW, and make electric torpedoes like the MK50, USET-80/Yu-8, and TEST-71 much more important. Slower torpedos should run farther. I don't have much expierence with the other type of torps so someone else can give their opinion on that though it sounds reasonable to me... :hmm: Wolfy __________________ [Current JSGME Mods Used In My Game] "Dave, you will always be remembered! R.I.P." U-759

05-06-06, 01:34 PM	#1
LuftWolf Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2005 Location: Free New York Posts: 3,167 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	LuftWolf and Amizaur's Realism Mod Poll #11: Adv. Torpedoes The ability exists to make substantial changes to torpedo behavior. My question is, how great is the desire to complicate gameplay? Advanced Wire Control: the ability to change speed, acoustic mode, search pattern, and depth for wire guided torpedoes. Sensor Modelling: Adding wakehoming capability to the UGST, TEST-71ME-NK, and USET-80 that can be selected at preset, removing the snake pattern from the ADCAP and replacing it with a single beam sweeping search sensor, also, making sure the torpedo sensors are properly sensitivity limited rather than hardcap limited. Restricting the length of wire guided torpedoes to 10-13nm (depending the on the torpedo) would mean that subs would have to be very close to each other to engage in the standard wireguided torpedo play common now, but it would also make salvos at long range much less effective, as those SW players could can no longer send four torpedoes in from all directions at 16nm. Honestly, I think this is the biggest gameplay change, aside from the torpedo physics. Advanced Torpedo Physics: Slower torpedoes run farther, non-electric torpedoes fired deeper run slower and shorter (about 10 kts slower at max depth 600m for UGST for example). This would substantially change the way the game is played in ASW, and make electric torpedoes like the MK50, USET-80/Yu-8, and TEST-71 much more important. __________________ LW

05-06-06, 02:14 PM	#5
Deathblow Captain Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 518 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Sounds intriguing. I had no idea that electric torpedoes didn't suffer from speed reductions at depth... wonder why? :hmm: The torpedo physics sound great, it would certainly make the torp attacks and evasion more intricate (with deep diving evasion more of a benifit for subs). As well as create an additional benifit for slow torp speeds. It would also make the torpedo performance of some "sprinter" torps like the Spearfish able to be modeled more accurately because its torp speeds are toted to be 70knots with a 12nm range, but can actually reach 25-30nm at slow speeds. Though tricking the AI to make the right setting is probably a completely different problem. Anyway, physics sound great. Restricting the wire length sounds great. Is is possilbe to "speed restrict" it too? As in if the sub breaks 30knots the wire breaks? As far as removing the ADCAP snake. One thing that will complicate this is that the lack of a snaking movement is the only way a player knows that his torpedoes are homing on something. Otherwise we really can't tell what the torps are doing because they don't have wirefeedback as in RL (due to it being bugged toward a cheat). If the ADCAP doesn't snake it will probably cause more problems than worth it. As far advanced wire control. This could be tricky dependent on how cumbersome the command inputs would become.

05-06-06, 03:25 PM	#11
Wildcat Engineer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 215 Downloads: 69 Uploads: 0	All of the above sounds good, but I do wonder how torpedo depth is going to be controlled considering there is no interface for controlling torpedo depth in the sim once the torpedo has left the tube.

05-06-06, 03:42 PM	#14
Deathblow Captain Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 518 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Question: Will the 10-13nm limit for the wire generate a "lost the wire tube x" to the player whenever the wire is cut?

05-06-06, 03:50 PM	#15
Henson Planesman Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 185 Downloads: 13 Uploads: 0	In response to the question about how the wire plays out from the tube IRL, it works as follows. The torpedo itself has a certain amount of guidance wire internal to the weapon, and inside the tube is a guidance wire dispenser with about 1/2 the amount of what is in the torpedo fuel tank. After launch, once the wire achieves 'equilibrium' the torpedo will feed out as much wire as necessary to account for its own motion, and the wire dispenser in the tube will pay out enough to account for O/S motion. In theory the center of the wire is stationary. The reason there is less wire in the tube than there is in the torpedo fuel tank is the fact that the torpedo moves at roughly twice the speed O/S does.