Periscope not detectable by radar?

akm_ch · 09-17-05, 02:10 PM

I just read that in DW 1.01 the periscope can't be detected by radar. As this doesn't seem to be very realistic to me (are there stealth periscopes?

) I'd like to know whether there is a fix for this?

(btw: wasn't it even possible to detect snorkels by radar already in WW2?)

Maybe somebody can help or clarify if this is a misunderstanding from my side ...

SeaQueen · 09-17-05, 02:22 PM

It depends on a lot of stuff.

In real life, periscopes can be detected by radar, but it's not easy. Basically, unless you leave your mast up for an absurd period of time in calm weather, you're not likely to be detected. Some radars are better than others, though. There's several radars out there designed to specifically spot periscope masts because ordinary surface search radars don't always catch them. Those are really good at picking out periscopes, and are actually pretty interesting. Maritime patrol aircraft usually have a radar that's really good at detecting periscopes. Surface ships typically don't.

Currently, though a periscope is more likely to get spotted by a good lookout on top of the pilot house.

LuftWolf · 09-17-05, 02:28 PM

In game terms, the AI will not detect sails and masts, a gameplay decision by SCS, although player-controlled platforms (multiplayer) will detect sails for sure (I'm not sure about masts and detection).

Skybird · 09-17-05, 03:01 PM

For dramaturgical reasons I find that "gameplay decision" questionable. It may be considered as minor by many, but so far I handled the masts with extreme care because of fear of beeing detected. Dissapointing that I was troubled all for nothing and could sail with raised periscope forever. Hope a mod will make masts detected by the AI if beeing rasied for a longer while. they eventually should be detected by according platforms if the distance and equipement allows for that and if , for example, periscope is raised longer than a full 360Â° sweep takes at a 8x magnification. Maybe a raising probablity the longer the mast stay raised beyond a reasonable ammount of time. Why is there a separate ESM indicator at the persicope station if it is of no use at all, then?

akm_ch · 09-17-05, 04:17 PM

In case somebody is interested in the WW2 stuff about schnorchels and radar I recommend reading this:

http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com...tic/uboat.aspx

It says there: "The "Schnorchel" device could sometimes be detected by radar or keen-eyed lookouts in calm weather, but although virtually impossible to spot in rougher conditions, these same situations often caused problems of their own."

compressioncut · 09-17-05, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeaQueen

It depends on a lot of stuff.

Currently, though a periscope is more likely to get spotted by a good lookout on top of the pilot house.

I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with this.

Let's say the absolute minimum range you can avoid an incoming torpedo is 2,500 yards. I can't recall ever seeing a scope out that far, certainly not when it wasn't exactly what I was looking for. Probably inside a mile in most cases.

SquidB · 09-17-05, 07:10 PM

Mast should show up on radar absolutely, depending on sea state.

The way is should work is you work out a mast up = found on radar time, then add a +5 - 5 variable whatever....that way the sub skipper ****s his pants every time he rasies perescope and the asw skipper gets lucky time from time

Make it so you code monkeys!!!!

Bellman · 09-18-05, 04:06 AM

'' Language Timothy !! ''

Kapitan · 09-18-05, 06:55 AM

lol tisk tisk :|\

OlegM · 09-18-05, 10:15 AM

According to you guys nuke sub life expectancy in modern naval warfare would be around 20 minutes

Masts detectable by radars, ultra efficient active sonars, then also reducing the effectiveness of counter measures seems to be popular in modding world too...

I am not saying it's not realistic, but it is my opinion nuke subs are quite screwed in DW as it is. It seems weird that most powerful nations built hundereds of multi mega zillion dollar subs, crewed by hunreders of their best sailors per sub if they are so easy to find, detect and destroy by equipment worth 5% their price, and crewed by 5% their complement as DW sometimes makes us believe.

In short, DW already has pretty strong anti-sub slant overall, in my humble opinion, so when asking for changes or mods to be made be careful what you wish for...

O.

Molon Labe · 09-18-05, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OlegM

According to you guys nuke sub life expectancy in modern naval warfare would be around 20 minutes

Masts detectable by radars, ultra efficient active sonars, reducing the effectiveness of counter measures seems to be popular in modding world too...

I am not saying it's not realistic, but it is my opinion nuke subs are quite screwed in DW as it is. It seems weird that most powerful nations built hundereds of multi mega zillion dollar subs, crewed by hunreders of their best sailors per sub if they are so easy to find, detect and destroy by equipment worth 5% their price, and crewed by 5% their complement as DW sometimes makes us believe.

In short, DW already has pretty strong anti-sub slant overall, in my humble opinion, so when asking for changes or mods to be made be careful what you wish for...

O.

Subs in DW are screwed because active sonar detection ranges are determined by the size of the display and not be acoustic condidtions. If this can be fixed...and LW/Amizaur's mod might just do this...then subs will be able to be sneaky like they should be. Which also means modeling detectable masts wouldn't be a bad idea, as long as detection wasn't immediate and/or automatic. I think it would be cool if you had to worry about how long you left your masts up.

You are right though, in stock DW as it is now, we don't need any more anti sub bias. Especially since the periscope is our only hope of surviving a P-3 or MH-60!

Bellman · 09-18-05, 10:28 AM

ML

Quote:

I think it would be cool if you had to worry about how long you left your masts up. Arrgh!

I do, I really do - in both senses. :rotfl:

Kapitan · 09-18-05, 11:11 AM

bellman how dirty are you

where i play i rarely use masts cause im under ice

Ghost Dog · 09-18-05, 02:10 PM

I've always been a periscope drill kinda guy. I never kept my masts up for too long, I always assumed that there was a chance they'd get picked up.

but i agree with those who said that beyond 2,500 yds you probably wont see much. and a mast is so small that it would take a pretty good radar set and somewhat calms seas to pick it up.

I wonder if a SPY-1D would pick one up and at what range?

akm_ch · 09-18-05, 02:47 PM

It's once again me ...

just came across the following:

http://radar-www.nrl.navy.mil/Areas/Periscope/

quote ---
In fact, the Navy has an operational periscope-detection radar, the APS-137, installed in S-3B and P-3C aircraft; but, because the APS-137 requires human operators to distinguish sea clutter and other objects from periscopes, it is completely overwhelmed in high sea states and in dense-target littoral seas.
end quote ---

what do you say now?

09-17-05, 02:10 PM	#1
akm_ch Swabbie Join Date: May 2005 Location: Switzerland (Zurich = little big city) Posts: 7 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Periscope not detectable by radar? I just read that in DW 1.01 the periscope can't be detected by radar. As this doesn't seem to be very realistic to me (are there stealth periscopes? ) I'd like to know whether there is a fix for this? (btw: wasn't it even possible to detect snorkels by radar already in WW2?) Maybe somebody can help or clarify if this is a misunderstanding from my side ...

09-17-05, 02:28 PM	#3
LuftWolf Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2005 Location: Free New York Posts: 3,167 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	In game terms, the AI will not detect sails and masts, a gameplay decision by SCS, although player-controlled platforms (multiplayer) will detect sails for sure (I'm not sure about masts and detection). __________________ LW

09-17-05, 03:01 PM	#4
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,708 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	For dramaturgical reasons I find that "gameplay decision" questionable. It may be considered as minor by many, but so far I handled the masts with extreme care because of fear of beeing detected. Dissapointing that I was troubled all for nothing and could sail with raised periscope forever. Hope a mod will make masts detected by the AI if beeing rasied for a longer while. they eventually should be detected by according platforms if the distance and equipement allows for that and if , for example, periscope is raised longer than a full 360Â° sweep takes at a 8x magnification. Maybe a raising probablity the longer the mast stay raised beyond a reasonable ammount of time. Why is there a separate ESM indicator at the persicope station if it is of no use at all, then? __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

09-18-05, 04:06 AM	#8
Bellman Sea Lord Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 1,945 Downloads: 220 Uploads: 0	'' Language Timothy !! '' __________________ Liberty, Equality, Fraternity

09-18-05, 06:55 AM	#9
Kapitan Sub Test Pilot Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UK + Canada Posts: 7,132 Downloads: 77 Uploads: 7	lol tisk tisk :\|\ __________________ DONT FORGET if you like a post to nominate it by using the blue diamond Find out about Museum Ships here: https://www.museumships.us/ Flickr for all my pictures: https://www.flickr.com/photos/131313936@N03/ Navy general board articles: https://www.navygeneralboard.com/author/aegis/

09-17-05, 02:22 PM	#2
SeaQueen Naval Royalty Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 1,185 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	It depends on a lot of stuff. In real life, periscopes can be detected by radar, but it's not easy. Basically, unless you leave your mast up for an absurd period of time in calm weather, you're not likely to be detected. Some radars are better than others, though. There's several radars out there designed to specifically spot periscope masts because ordinary surface search radars don't always catch them. Those are really good at picking out periscopes, and are actually pretty interesting. Maritime patrol aircraft usually have a radar that's really good at detecting periscopes. Surface ships typically don't. Currently, though a periscope is more likely to get spotted by a good lookout on top of the pilot house.

09-17-05, 04:17 PM	#5
akm_ch Swabbie Join Date: May 2005 Location: Switzerland (Zurich = little big city) Posts: 7 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	In case somebody is interested in the WW2 stuff about schnorchels and radar I recommend reading this: http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com...tic/uboat.aspx It says there: "The "Schnorchel" device could sometimes be detected by radar or keen-eyed lookouts in calm weather, but although virtually impossible to spot in rougher conditions, these same situations often caused problems of their own."

09-17-05, 07:10 PM	#7
SquidB Officer Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Lytham UK Posts: 244 Downloads: 169 Uploads: 0	Mast should show up on radar absolutely, depending on sea state. The way is should work is you work out a mast up = found on radar time, then add a +5 - 5 variable whatever....that way the sub skipper ****s his pants every time he rasies perescope and the asw skipper gets lucky time from time Make it so you code monkeys!!!!

09-18-05, 10:15 AM	#10
OlegM Engineer Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 214 Downloads: 7 Uploads: 0	According to you guys nuke sub life expectancy in modern naval warfare would be around 20 minutes Masts detectable by radars, ultra efficient active sonars, then also reducing the effectiveness of counter measures seems to be popular in modding world too... I am not saying it's not realistic, but it is my opinion nuke subs are quite screwed in DW as it is. It seems weird that most powerful nations built hundereds of multi mega zillion dollar subs, crewed by hunreders of their best sailors per sub if they are so easy to find, detect and destroy by equipment worth 5% their price, and crewed by 5% their complement as DW sometimes makes us believe. In short, DW already has pretty strong anti-sub slant overall, in my humble opinion, so when asking for changes or mods to be made be careful what you wish for... O.

09-18-05, 11:11 AM	#13
Kapitan Sub Test Pilot Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UK + Canada Posts: 7,132 Downloads: 77 Uploads: 7	bellman how dirty are you where i play i rarely use masts cause im under ice __________________ DONT FORGET if you like a post to nominate it by using the blue diamond Find out about Museum Ships here: https://www.museumships.us/ Flickr for all my pictures: https://www.flickr.com/photos/131313936@N03/ Navy general board articles: https://www.navygeneralboard.com/author/aegis/

09-18-05, 02:10 PM	#14
Ghost Dog Planesman Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Olympus Mons, Mars Posts: 184 Downloads: 115 Uploads: 0	I've always been a periscope drill kinda guy. I never kept my masts up for too long, I always assumed that there was a chance they'd get picked up. but i agree with those who said that beyond 2,500 yds you probably wont see much. and a mast is so small that it would take a pretty good radar set and somewhat calms seas to pick it up. I wonder if a SPY-1D would pick one up and at what range?

09-18-05, 02:47 PM	#15
akm_ch Swabbie Join Date: May 2005 Location: Switzerland (Zurich = little big city) Posts: 7 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	It's once again me ... just came across the following: http://radar-www.nrl.navy.mil/Areas/Periscope/ quote --- In fact, the Navy has an operational periscope-detection radar, the APS-137, installed in S-3B and P-3C aircraft; but, because the APS-137 requires human operators to distinguish sea clutter and other objects from periscopes, it is completely overwhelmed in high sea states and in dense-target littoral seas. end quote --- what do you say now?