Man the lifeboats! By the book?

Ula Jolly · 08-06-05, 11:18 AM

I stumbled across some readings from The Great War, concerning German submarines and their warfare.

While a lot of ugly things happened in this war, the procedure for sinking passenger liners and merchants were in --some-- cases rather kind!
Couldn't we get a mod to the game where we sail up alongside the merchant and order them kindly to get the heck off?

Or maybe this wasn't practised at all during WWII?

I've previously mentioned that 10,000 tons in a IIA is more honourable than 10,000 tons in a VIIC, but THIS would make for much more honour!

Shadow9216 · 08-06-05, 07:08 PM

What you're referring to is the "Prize Rules". In short, merchants could be stopped and inspected; if they were not carrying "contraband" (ie: war materials), they were allowed to pass. If they were deemed to be carrying contraband, they could either be siezed or sunk. If the warship decided to sink the merchant, they were required to ensure all hands were safely off the ship and into lifeboats, given a course towards land, and a notification made.

The Germans adhered to the prize rules in the first part of the war, but gradually abandoned them in favor of unrestricted warfare after it was determined that U-boats were in more danger from the merchants than vice versa.

This is a quick once over, there's much more to it than that.

Salvadoreno · 08-06-05, 09:43 PM

Yah the ability to use the "Prize Rules" in the beggining years of the war would be awesome!!! Especially finding those nuetrals with contraband, and being able to search. Woooo.. Awesome.. haha but all in vain.

iambecomelife · 08-06-05, 10:52 PM

If only we could. That sort of thing is probably impossible because of the way the existing game engine is set up. Maybe if we ask the devs nicely...

Ula Jolly · 08-07-05, 02:58 PM

Who are the "devs" anyway, and how can one suggest things like this to them?

ShipperS7 · 08-07-05, 03:52 PM

"Excuse me, could you please get off your boat so I can sink it?"

iambecomelife · 08-07-05, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ula Jolly

Who are the "devs" anyway, and how can one suggest things like this to them?

The developers of the game. I doubt that they'd offer this, since they refused to allow lifeboats and other indications of human presence on the ships we sink. It seems inconsistent, given that we can blow up the gun crews on warships and armed merchants - why not give the crew a chance to escape?

slow_n_ez · 08-07-05, 05:07 PM

I usually put one torpedo into the side of merchants and wait a while... Hopeing that the crew is frantically getting into their lifeboats and moving away ... if it don't sink on its own then either let my deck gunner have target pratice or fire another fish

Bear · 08-09-05, 05:35 PM

Early War - I fire a Star Shell over ship I am about to attack. Give them time to split - then sink the ship. I know they don't leave, but My Honor is intact.

For Neutral ships - I shoot cargo off the deck with a flak gun, but don't sink the ship, but sometimes "Stuff happens" and the darn thing blows up. I was to close once, being a nice little natz and when it blew up it sank my boot. So no more Mr. Nice Guy.

Laughing Swordfish · 08-09-05, 08:24 PM

That is one well-trimmed boat!

Talking of survivors how good would it be to pull off something like the Lacona Incident?

iambecomelife · 08-09-05, 08:46 PM

The lack of survivors is a major problem with an otherwise groundbreaking game. Think of how differently the Battle of the Atlantic would have been if merchant vessels had been crewless drones and the escorts never needed to worry about rescuing survivors. Also, it's interesting to note that several convoys were discovered by wolfpacks after survivors divulged information about their courses to the U-boats. Not having survivors is in short a very significant handicap for our virtual crews.

Stymnus · 08-09-05, 09:52 PM

One of the things that caused the end of the prize rules was that merchants -- even neutrals sometimes -- would try to ram the u-boats after they announced their presence.

The BdU decided that if the enemy wasn't going to play by the rules, then neither could they, as it risked too many of their own men and boats.

08-10-05, 02:13 AM

Aahh the myth of the good german honourable soldier/seaman. Well let me tell you there weren't any...The myth is also being telled with respect to the Battle of Britain, only after the bombing of Berlin by the RAF (which was reaction to an error of an Heinkel pilot) Hitler decided to bomb London and not only military installation....

Politics my friend...

Sailor Steve · 08-21-07, 11:23 AM

Original topic: Yes, during the Great War the Germans originally confronted ships and allowed them to get away first. This allowed them to sink the merchants with scuttling charges, thereby saving torpedoes and deck gun ammo, as well as lives. Unfortunately it also lead to the development of the Q-ships; merchants with hidden guns which could end an unsuspecting u-boat's career very quickly. Some of them even played elaborate 'abandon ship' charades to draw the u-boat even closer. This is a major reason leading to unrestricted submarine warfare.

In WW2 the u-boats were torpedoing merchants right from the start.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glassair

Aahh the myth of the good german honourable soldier/seaman. Well let me tell you there weren't any...

I would refer you to the Laconia incident:
http://uboat.net/ops/laconia.htm

German sailors showed considerable honor with respect to survivors.

Ula Jolly · 08-10-05, 02:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glassair

Aahh the myth of the good german honourable soldier/seaman. Well let me tell you there weren't any...The myth is also being telled with respect to the Battle of Britain, only after the bombing of Berlin by the RAF (which was reaction to an error of an Heinkel pilot) Hitler decided to bomb London and not only military installation....

Politics my friend...

I guess we can only be glad Hitler was a faulty man altogether, or his officers could actually have won the war - or at least seized control over much of the world. Imagine what it would be if he didn't have an east front! *SHIVER!*

That being said, I'd like to point out that there might not have been such a successful raid on Pearl Harbour, if the Japanese had not learned from the Italians after they had a fleet in port sunk by Swordfish torpedo-bombers.

08-06-05, 11:18 AM	#1
Ula Jolly Samurai Navy Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Norway Posts: 567 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Man the lifeboats! By the book? I stumbled across some readings from The Great War, concerning German submarines and their warfare. While a lot of ugly things happened in this war, the procedure for sinking passenger liners and merchants were in --some-- cases rather kind! Couldn't we get a mod to the game where we sail up alongside the merchant and order them kindly to get the heck off? Or maybe this wasn't practised at all during WWII? I've previously mentioned that 10,000 tons in a IIA is more honourable than 10,000 tons in a VIIC, but THIS would make for much more honour! __________________ I shall punish yee, landlubber! C'mere for spankings and popsicles!

08-06-05, 09:43 PM	#3
Salvadoreno Grey Wolf Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 887 Downloads: 119 Uploads: 0	Yah the ability to use the "Prize Rules" in the beggining years of the war would be awesome!!! Especially finding those nuetrals with contraband, and being able to search. Woooo.. Awesome.. haha but all in vain. __________________

08-06-05, 10:52 PM	#4
iambecomelife Silent Hunter Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 4,706 Downloads: 300 Uploads: 0	If only we could. That sort of thing is probably impossible because of the way the existing game engine is set up. Maybe if we ask the devs nicely... __________________ https://www.facebook.com/WolvesoftheKaiser/

08-07-05, 02:58 PM	#5
Ula Jolly Samurai Navy Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Norway Posts: 567 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Who are the "devs" anyway, and how can one suggest things like this to them? __________________ I shall punish yee, landlubber! C'mere for spankings and popsicles!

08-07-05, 03:52 PM	#6
ShipperS7 Watch Join Date: May 2005 Location: California, USA Posts: 30 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	"Excuse me, could you please get off your boat so I can sink it?" __________________

08-06-05, 07:08 PM	#2
Shadow9216 Frogman Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 296 Downloads: 91 Uploads: 0	What you're referring to is the "Prize Rules". In short, merchants could be stopped and inspected; if they were not carrying "contraband" (ie: war materials), they were allowed to pass. If they were deemed to be carrying contraband, they could either be siezed or sunk. If the warship decided to sink the merchant, they were required to ensure all hands were safely off the ship and into lifeboats, given a course towards land, and a notification made. The Germans adhered to the prize rules in the first part of the war, but gradually abandoned them in favor of unrestricted warfare after it was determined that U-boats were in more danger from the merchants than vice versa. This is a quick once over, there's much more to it than that.

08-07-05, 05:07 PM	#8
slow_n_ez Officer Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Astoria , Oregon Posts: 246 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I usually put one torpedo into the side of merchants and wait a while... Hopeing that the crew is frantically getting into their lifeboats and moving away ... if it don't sink on its own then either let my deck gunner have target pratice or fire another fish

08-09-05, 05:35 PM	#9
Bear Helmsman Join Date: May 2005 Location: CSA - Confused States of America Posts: 107 Downloads: 99 Uploads: 0	Early War - I fire a Star Shell over ship I am about to attack. Give them time to split - then sink the ship. I know they don't leave, but My Honor is intact. For Neutral ships - I shoot cargo off the deck with a flak gun, but don't sink the ship, but sometimes "Stuff happens" and the darn thing blows up. I was to close once, being a nice little natz and when it blew up it sank my boot. So no more Mr. Nice Guy.

08-09-05, 08:24 PM	#10
Laughing Swordfish Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: London Posts: 713 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	That is one well-trimmed boat! Talking of survivors how good would it be to pull off something like the Lacona Incident?

08-09-05, 08:46 PM	#11
iambecomelife Silent Hunter Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 4,706 Downloads: 300 Uploads: 0	The lack of survivors is a major problem with an otherwise groundbreaking game. Think of how differently the Battle of the Atlantic would have been if merchant vessels had been crewless drones and the escorts never needed to worry about rescuing survivors. Also, it's interesting to note that several convoys were discovered by wolfpacks after survivors divulged information about their courses to the U-boats. Not having survivors is in short a very significant handicap for our virtual crews. __________________ https://www.facebook.com/WolvesoftheKaiser/

08-09-05, 09:52 PM	#12
Stymnus A-ganger Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Wilton, NH Posts: 72 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Yeah One of the things that caused the end of the prize rules was that merchants -- even neutrals sometimes -- would try to ram the u-boats after they announced their presence. The BdU decided that if the enemy wasn't going to play by the rules, then neither could they, as it risked too many of their own men and boats.

08-10-05, 02:13 AM	#13
Glassair Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Aahh the myth of the good german honourable soldier/seaman. Well let me tell you there weren't any...The myth is also being telled with respect to the Battle of Britain, only after the bombing of Berlin by the RAF (which was reaction to an error of an Heinkel pilot) Hitler decided to bomb London and not only military installation.... Politics my friend...