ALL THE MISSING FEATURES THAT A WWII SUBMARINE SIMULATION SHOULD HAVE

[Mister_M]

Hello,

In this thread, I would like to list all the missing (or badly done) features which, in your opinion (and mine), are really missing in SH3 to make it a real good U-Boot and WWII simulation. This list could be useful to help developpers for a future U-Boot simulation.

I will update this first post with all your ideas.

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Before each line, the evaluation that I give to the difficulty to add the feature (1/5 = easy ----- 5/5 = very hard).

* = Possible to partially correct/add to SH3.
** = Possible to fully correct/add to SH3.

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The weather

Weather, night and moon light should be key factors having a major effect on detection ability (visual, hydrophone, ASDIC, radar) both for the enemy and yourself *. Cf. AI detection ability.

3/5 - The weather should be far more sophisticated, with a lot of various and precise parameters, different types of clouds, realistic wind speeds and sea states.

2/5 - The type of weather should depend on the period of the year and geographical position (for example, there are more storms in the North Atlantic during winter).

1/5 - Snow (snow squalls) and aurora borealis (illuminating the night) should be added.

1/5 - Bad weather (storm) should cause the convoys to scatter.

1/5 - You shouldn't be able to use periscope at night, or only (and hardly) with bright moon light (full moon in clear sky).


The AI units

2/5 - They should be able to attack with torpedoes (AI submarines, aircrafts, fast boats, destroyers...).

4/5 - They should adjust their attack depending on the power of the enemy in front of them (run away under a smoke screen, run for a torpedo attack, crash dive...).

2/5 - All the units escorting a convoy should not attack at the same time a single U-Boot, leaving the convoy without protection. They also shouldn't hunt it for too long (for example no more than 30 minutes), their main task being to escort the convoy. They should use ASDIC even prior to any enemy contact. They shouldn't go away too far from the convoy

3/5 - They should be able to not get stuck against the shore, and choose a "clever" route to avoid coast line and other obstacles.

Detection ability :
2/5 - they should't be able to detect you with hydrophone if you're sailing in the middle of a convoy ;
1/5 - they should't be able to detect you with ASDIC if you're near other ships or near/on the sea bottom ;
1/5 - they should't be able to see you at night (or hardly) with only visual sensor * (in order to be able to conduct realistic night surface attacks, including getting inside convoys without being spotted as some U-Boot's aces did in WWII) ;
1/5 - they should't be able to detect you with hydrophone or ASDIC during/after DC explosions ;
3/5 - hydrophone, ASDIC or radar should not give to the AI your exact position (distance, bearing and depth) nor your course and speed (or hardly).

1/5 - Airplanes shouldn't be able to fly/attack in storm (nor at night, except for special units equiped with radar/Ley light).

1/5 - It should be possible to stop a neutral ship to inspect her cargo, and ask the crew to leave the boat if you think you have to sink this ship. You should be able to detect if the ship is transmitting detress signals with her radio. Some merchant also refusing to stop, and even trying to ramm you.

3/5 - It should be possible to interact with a ship or submarine to refuel or load torpedoes at sea, something more realistic and sophisticated than just sailing to a point, anchor next to a ship/submarine and leaving game and reloading with random addition of fuel and torpedoes.

5/5 - You should be able to operate in wolfpacks, the AI U-Boots being enough clever to report (with useful informations) and follow a convoy without being detected, and choose the best moment and place to attack with torpedoes. The BdU should also give proper orders given the situations, including giving some patrol areas for each U-Boot of the pack.

3/5 - The enemy should be able to send a hunter killer group (if possible) where you have been spotted by visual detection, your radio transmissions (Hf/Df) or intelligence (decoded german encrypted messages with ULTRA).


Campaign and historical aspects

3/5 - All convoys should be historical (dates, route, composition, escort, etc.) *.

2/5 - The BdU should be much more active, telling you where the convoys are, what tactics to use, what new dangers to avoid... Historical messages should be used as much as possible **.

2/5 - Minefields should be historical (areas, density, type of mines, depth) *.


The crew of the playable U-Boot

4/5 - You should have the feeling to be in the shoes of the U-Boot's commander. Not having to do calculations, but only deciding about strategical decisions. You should have a large chat list containing precise orders to give to the crew. In particular, while in a torpedo attack run, a chain of historical orders and replies by the officers and crew members should take place.

2/5 - Repairs to the boat should be realistic. A flooding meaning most of the time surfacing and surrendering... if not too late to die.

2/5 - A crew member should be able to give (limited) medical assistance.


Misc

3/5 - The Earth should be spherical and not flat, in order to have real distances and GPS coordinates (to recreate real events, battles...). You should be able to see a ship disappearing under the horizon when sailing away of it.

1/5 - The distances of visibility should be far greater. In SH3 (with special env mods), the maximum is 20 km, but it can be 100 km in real life.

3/5 - Geography (including sea floor with shallows and reefs) should be accurate, at least in areas where we are often sailing or of historical interest (German and French coast, Scapa Flow, Helgoland...).

2/5 - Harbours should have historical look. U-Boots' bunkers should appear at proper dates.

2/5 - The merchant ships should have a realistic look and reflect variety **.

1/5 - Neutral merchant ships should wear neutrality marks on their hull **.

2/5 - Realistic and meaningful sounds given by the hydrophone.

2/5 - Chlorine gas should appear when the batteries are damaged, with consequences on the crew...

3/5 - All the work around the torpedoes should be more historicaly correct (it was necessary to regularly charge their batteries, to warm up them before launching for greater range, etc.)


The mission editor

1/5 - There should be a way to precisely script the weather for a specific mission over the time (for example : cloudy at the beginning, then little rain 2 hours and 22 minutes later with more wind, then some sun and clouds for 45 minutes, etc.) .

1/5 - It should be possible to script a special behaviour of units for a specific mission (kamikaze attack, or always withdraw attack if there is an any enemy cruiser...).

2/5 - More complexe conditions (with the use of boolean operators) should be available to determine different scenarios. The building of conditions, events, triggers... should be easier (less rigid) and clearer. It should be possible to create missions lasting several days or months.

1/5 - It should be possible to continue to play a mission, regardless of the objectives (all missed or all completed).

1/5 - It should be possible to choose what skin (texture) to apply to each specific unit.

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What else ?

[Anvar1061]

Airplanes should not fly in bad weather.

[John Pancoast]

AOD with current graphics would do. Period. Heck, it does even without current graphics.

[Randomizer]

This list could be useful to help developers for a future U-Boot simulation.

<rant on>

Sorry to rain on your parade but this is pure wishful thinking. They have been reading similar content for decades but don't care because the community will largely pay for crappy, new games solely because they're new. Also the trope that "We MUST purchase bad games to encourage SOMEBODY to produce a good one" has proven fallacious time after time.

Arguably since AOD and the original Silent Hunter, posts like this have appeared by the dozen (maybe by the hundreds) and virtually every subsequent submarine simulation sheds features rather than adds to them, often but not always for slick graphics. Producing a glitzy sound and light spectacular is cheaper than a deep simulation that marries strategic and tactical accuracy for the Player with a GUI that captures the essence of the combat submarine commanders role.

<rant off>

AOD with current graphics would do. Period. Heck, it does even without current graphics

This!

-C

[Mister_M]

Originally Posted by Randomizer

<rant on>

Sorry to rain on your parade but this is pure wishful thinking. They have been reading similar content for decades but don't care because the community will largely pay for crappy, new games solely because they're new. Also the trope that "We MUST purchase bad games to encourage SOMEBODY to produce a good one" has proven fallacious time after time.

Arguably since AOD and the original Silent Hunter, posts like this have appeared by the dozen (maybe by the hundreds) and virtually every subsequent submarine simulation sheds features rather than adds to them, often but not always for slick graphics. Producing a glitzy sound and light spectacular is cheaper than a deep simulation that marries strategic and tactical accuracy for the Player with a GUI that captures the essence of the combat submarine commanders role.

<rant off>

Thank you for sharing your experience. You're probably right, our crazy capitalist system produces only bull**** to make money, the only goal of this poor world...

Nevertheless, it's always good to have in mind all the lacking features, in order to have a better idea of what should be a good WWII submarine simulation.

And perhaps an "open" submarine simulation will come to life one day, built by passionate guys, there are so many... Graphics are not the most important IMO, only historical accuracy and the feeling to really fight a war, not playing a stupid game.

[John Pancoast]

Originally Posted by Randomizer

<rant on>

Sorry to rain on your parade but this is pure wishful thinking. They have been reading similar content for decades but don't care because the community will largely pay for crappy, new games solely because they're new. Also the trope that "We MUST purchase bad games to encourage SOMEBODY to produce a good one" has proven fallacious time after time.

Arguably since AOD and the original Silent Hunter, posts like this have appeared by the dozen (maybe by the hundreds) and virtually every subsequent submarine simulation sheds features rather than adds to them, often but not always for slick graphics. Producing a glitzy sound and light spectacular is cheaper than a deep simulation that marries strategic and tactical accuracy for the Player with a GUI that captures the essence of the combat submarine commanders role.

<rant off>



This!

-C

:u p::Kal eun_Thumbs_Up:


Nail/head.

[John Pancoast]

One fun thing I would like to see sometime. With a surface attack, have the player able to designate a target(s) for an ai officer to attack with the torpedoes. After designation, the ai would carry out all the actual details/functions of the attack.

Instead of the player, being the commander, having to also be the first officer, navigator, watch crew, etc. all at the same time.

[Mister_M]

Originally Posted by John Pancoast

AOD with current graphics would do. Period. Heck, it does even without current graphics.

What has AOD more than SH3 ?

[John Pancoast]

Originally Posted by Mister_M

What has AOD more than SH3 ?

In a nutshell, many, many mods that have been made for SH3 were to replicate something already in AOD, and in AOD they work whereas in SH3, they may only kind of/sort of work because of the game limitations a modder has to work with in SH3. And some items that are in AOD are still not in SH3.

In terms of simulating the Battle of the Atlantic, the only things SH3 has over AOD are graphics and manual targeting.
If one enjoys SH3, they owe it to themselves to try AOD. But they'll have to change their tactics; the sloppy tactics one can use in SH3 will get one sunk every time in AOD, as AOD simulates escort/aircraft/convoy behavior much better/realistically.

[Mister_M]

Originally Posted by John Pancoast

AOD simulates escort/aircraft/convoy behavior much better/realistically.

Well, I saw a gameplay video on youtube and I didn't see AI being better...

How is AI better in AOD ?

Originally Posted by John Pancoast

And some items that are in AOD are still not in SH3.

Could you be more specific ?

[SnipersHunter]

Originally Posted by John Pancoast

AOD with current graphics would do. Period. Heck, it does even without current graphics.

This plus full manual tdc and the possibility for celnav

[John Pancoast]

Originally Posted by SnipersHunter

This plus full manual tdc and the possibility for celnav

Understood, though I prefer the mode of commander vs. navigator, etc.

[Bubblehead1980]

Proper dark nights and ability to conduct realistic night surface attacks, including getting inside convoys as some boats did.

In SH 4, I have made this possible via adjustments of sim.cfg, additions of darker nights, and adjustment to visual sensors in the Pacific side of things and plan to try in SH 4 ATO mods and SH 3 in near future.

works great actually. However, if this was inherent into the design of the sim, would work better.

HUGE oversight/omission by devs to not make this possible in the stock version.

AI subs capable of conducting realistic torpedo attacks--friendly and enemy as well. Have them in SH 4 as well now, but still would be better if was a "natural" element of SH 4.

Like you said, historical traffic out of the box so us modders do not have to spend time doing this tedious task so have a realistic campaign.


A spherical earth with ACCURATE geography and detailed map with realistic weather. Really is shameful how things are in the stock games.

[Mister_M]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

Proper dark nights and ability to conduct realistic night surface attacks, including getting inside convoys as some boats did.

In SH 4, I have made this possible via adjustments of sim.cfg, additions of darker nights, and adjustment to visual sensors in the Pacific side of things and plan to try in SH 4 ATO mods and SH 3 in near future.

I very would like that for SH3...

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

works great actually. However, if this was inherent into the design of the sim, would work better.

HUGE oversight/omission by devs to not make this possible in the stock version.

AI subs capable of conducting realistic torpedo attacks--friendly and enemy as well. Have them in SH 4 as well now, but still would be better if was a "natural" element of SH 4.

Like you said, historical traffic out of the box so us modders do not have to spend time doing this tedious task so have a realistic campaign.

A spherical earth with ACCURATE geography and detailed map with realistic weather. Really is shameful how things are in the stock games.

[iambecomelife]

-Proper portrayal of dud ammunition. In my opinion, many iterations of Silent Hunter 4 STILL did not portray the extent of Mk XIV's unreliability .... I felt like I was sinking too many ships in 1942-1943. Same goes for dud shells. There are no dud shells in stock SH3-SH4, and there is no way to get dud shells without negatively affecting all shell performance (you can add duds using the modding tool S3ditor but this impacts all min-max damage values).

-Accurate sound/visual/radar signatures for all objects. I am pretty sure that the calculation process for detection in SH3/4 is pretty crude. Enemy vessels should have varying detection percentages via radar for locating, say, a raised snorkel versus an entire submarine surfaced.

Radar (especially early radar) should have very serious problems with clutter/landmasses in the way until historical refinements are made.