Base Time 2018

[Front Runner]

UPDATE Base Time 2022

Base Time is as drifty as a Seaman Recruit on their first day at Great Lakes Naval Training Center!
Many of us have difficulty in making our Base Time adjustments from Zone to Zone when traveling east-west. Sometimes, the Sun or Moon Rise/Set times are so out of whack with our observations, even when making careful adjustments to our Base Time, that we just give up on it all. The following may explain why and what is happening. [EDIT] It appears that Careers starting in Pearl Harbor are using the Midway Base time. Midway is 11 hours west of GMT (UTC). Pearl Harbor Time is 10 hours west of GMT (UTC) but is physically 11 hours west of GMT (UTC). I checked Sunset and Sunrise times using the Almanac link below. I'm looking for verification. Thanks.

I've made many observations while remaining in the Brisbane Base Time Zone. My subs Base Time clock indicates what the local time is in the Brisbane Time Zone, 10 hours east of Zulu time. For my observations I did not transit east-west, outside the Brisbane Zone. I transited only from Brisbane north to the Bismarck Sea. I used the US Navy Sun or Moon Rise/Set Table for One Year as my Almanac times. (1944)

NOTE !!! Sept. 23, 2022 - GOOD NEWS! The below link is now back in operation. US Naval Astronomical Applications Department Data Services
https://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/index

NOTE: The NEW US Naval Astronomical Applications Department page allows adjusting time within a zone. So you may choose between 11 hours west, 11.25, 11.50, 11.75 incrementally refining your Sunrise/Sunset predictability while on station.

NOTE: Alternate Sunrise/Sunset Calendar. - https://www.sunrisesunset.com/custom.asp - You may create your own custom calendar using Lat/Long, Sunrise/Sunset, Moonrise/Moonset for a particular Month and Year.

I use the US Naval Astronomical Applications Department Sunrise/Sunset, Moonrise/Moonset Almanac to check my celestial sphere during gameplay.

I'm releasing my findings and observations about 1x play and how it affects the synchronization of the celestial sphere when using 2018 computer hardware.
It takes a long time to make observations at 1x, but I have nearly completed a series of observations which reveal some interesting side effects which absolutely affects gameplay, even when using typical time compression. After all, we have to go to 1x when making or avoiding attacks, sometimes for hours at a time. Typically though, players will constantly use a combination of 1x and time compression during these times.

Simply put....
When playing at 1x to 1024x time compression, the game is REMARKABLY accurate when rendering sunset and sunrise! (Compared to Almanac times.) A bit less accurate when rendering moonset and moonrise. However, when playing ONLY at 1x, a cumulative error occurs which offsets the synchronization of the celestial sphere so that the sunrise, sunset, moonset, moonrise times are out of sync with the Base Time clock, even when not traveling outside (east-west) of the Base Time zone.

OK, now here is the interesting part. The error seems to be directly related to the Vertical Sync setting in the Graphics Options. When Vertical Sync is selected on, there is a cumulative and noticeable error of the offset of sunrise, sunset, etc. (when played at 1x speed. I'm observing 60 fps with Vertical Sync clicked on.)
When Vertical Sync is un-selected, (I'm averaging 240 fps), the error offset is very much greater (when played at 1x speed). The difference is in many hours over a period of a few days.
That is why I posted my original message in the FOTRSU thread inquiring why my sunset, sunrise was off by many, many hours even though I was still in my Base Time meridian range. It was dark, but should have been daylight.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...postcount=6716

I'm arriving at the conclusion that with our modern computing hardware running balls out fps, a celestial sphere synchronization error is introduced (and cumulative) that affects the timing of certain events and may answer questions about strange behaviors. When it is visually midnight, but the Base Time clock says it should be daylight, you may think you are making a night attack, but, from the enemy's perspective, it is broad daylight and they can actually see you. (Even aircraft.)

I have repeated my series of tests and my observations are repeatable.

Try this, select Vertical Sync on (requires game restart), start at Brisbane, Jan. 3, 1944, outside the harbor. Steam (15 knots) directly to the 154 deg. 0 min meridian at 1x and thence directly north on the meridian until sunset (remain at 1x the entire transit). You start at about 1300 hours and sunset will occur approximately at the predicted almanac time of 1840 at 154 deg. 0 min E, 26 deg. 0 min. S.

I've observed sunset at 1824 (middle of sunset) 1827 (upper limb set). So, slightly early. (The next morning sunrise is 30 min. late, and the following sunset is 37 min. late at 1x (15 knots, proceeding north along the meridian.))

Now do the same thing, only with Vertical Sync off (requires game restart). I'm observing sunset on 01/03/44 at the same lat. long. quite a bit later (37 minutes) at 1904 (upper limb set). This is after only about 5 hours of 1x play! After 24 hours at 1x play the error becomes significantly greater!

Now do the same thing, Vertical Sync on (requires game restart), using typical time compression (1x-1024x) and you will see that the sunset occurs within a few minutes of the predicted Almanac time. After several cycles of testing this observation, day after day, sunrise and sunset, as I proceed to my Patrol Area (Bismarck Sea), I have to offer kudos to the Original SH4 devs. Essentially, they got this right! Sunset, sunrise, moonset and moonrise are within minutes of the Almanac predictions for each different lat. long.

When I play at 1x to 1024x with Vertical Sync on, the sunset/sunrise times are remarkably accurate, sometimes exactly at almanac predicted times! I've made these observations over a period of days from Jan. 3, 1944 to Jan. 10, 1944. I have yet to run a test with Vertical Sync off and 1x to 1024x play for comparison.

So, my conclusion, so far, is that it is best to play with Vertical Sync on, which minimizes the celestial sphere synchronization error when the game is played using 1x to 1024x (I have not tested anything more than 1024x because I saw no difference between 512x and 1024x observations. I'm assuming there is very little difference when using time compression above 1024x.) The error is very apparent when the game is played only at 1x speed. The error is greater when Vertical Sync is off.

This may explain why, after a long patrol, in and out of 1x play, we see such great discrepancies from what time we observe it should be, to what time the Base Time clock aboard our boat indicates it is, especially when playing with Vertical Sync selected off.

I have a few more observations to make and then I will post my results in a somewhat orderly sequence.

I am making four discrete observational tests.
(1) Playing at 1x with Vertical Sync on making observations at 1/3/44 Sunset, 1/4/44 Moonset, 1/4/44 Sunrise and 1/4/44 Sunset.

(2) Playing at 1x with Vertical Sync off making the same observations as in (1) above.

(3) Playing at 1x-1024x with Vertical Sync on making the same observations as in (1) above.

(4)Playing at 1x-1024x with Vertical Sync off making the same observations as in (1) above.

I would appreciate any others who wish to duplicate this series of tests in order to see if my observations can be duplicated.

Thanks!

[EDIT] See linked post....
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...67&postcount=8


[EDIT] When using the US Navy Complete Sun and Moon Data Almanac, or, the Sun or Moon Altitude/Azimuth Table, when you are based out of Pearl Harbor, use ""11 hours west" of Greenwich"" to obtain the correct Base time (ie Sunset), and, when you are based out of Midway, use ""12 hours west" of Greenwich"" (ie Sunset) to obtain correct Base time.

See top of message for US Navy Link

[propbeanie]

Just for kicks, through a Game Save in there... When you restore from the save, you may or may not be on "local" time still. This effect is more pronounced when traveling East / West, instead of North / South. You start on base time, but after a save, we assumed you were on local time. Now you make me wonder

[Front Runner]

Originally Posted by propbeanie

Just for kicks, through a Game Save in there... When you restore from the save, you may or may not be on "local" time still. This effect is more pronounced when traveling East / West, instead of North / South. You start on base time, but after a save, we assumed you were on local time. Now you make me wonder

I save my test points frequently and I haven’t noticed any difference in Base Time when going from a test play-through that has been running for over 24 hours, then reloading that play-through.

[propbeanie]

I do know that you can get "different" results when traveling East / West across the "time zones" and Saving the game. Thanks for that Front Runner - and you also passed the "typo test" with "Through" thrown in there for "Throw"... sorry 'bout that... It makes one wonder how the computer's clock and maybe multi-cores affects the game's "time" routines.

Edit: Now, I know this is easier to accomplish on a Win 8 or 10 machine, but on my Win7-64, you have to jump through hoops to run the Window Program Compatibility applet. You can get to it easiest from a "Search" on "Program Compatibility" or by right-clicking on the SH4.exe file, and choosing "Troubleshoot compatibility" about the middle of the top section of the context menu. Or you can go the long way and choose Properties, then the Compatibility tab, then the "Help me choose the settings" link, which brings up a dialog that then won't find SH4.exe, so you then have to "Browse" and choose it. Windows will then come up with a "solution" with settings for "Windows XP (Service Pack 2)". Since I've got multiple installs of Fall of the Rising Sun on my computer, I'll try and let my sub run North all night, beginning tonight, and see what I get with a WinXP SP2 setting on my computer, and get back with you Front Runner...

[Front Runner]

Originally Posted by propbeanie

......It makes one wonder how the computer's clock and maybe multi-cores affects the game's "time" routines.
......I'll try and let my sub run North all night, beginning tonight, and see what I get with a WinXP SP2 setting on my computer, and get back with you Front Runner...

Sounds good. I’m trying the same thing. I had not thought of “compatibility mode” for WinXP SP2.

[propbeanie]

Some how or other, I forgot about my surgery tomorrow morning, so it would be Friday evening before I try that... It's a bear gettin' old...

DiectX v9 has been around since 2002, and Silent Hunter III since 2005. SH4 has a lot of 3 in it, and I wonder about the differences in the DirectX versions that over-write the game's v9...

[merc4ulfate]

Originally Posted by Front Runner

Base Time is as drifty as a Seaman Recruit on their first day at Great Lakes Naval Training Center!

I do not even pay attention to time as a scale in this game. Most of it is a hard coded issue that will never be resolved. Is it visibly day or night is all I care about. The only reason I find time to be any value at all is if one is modding and you need to set it inside the mod for entrance and exits.

I was taught early on in this game to never save over a save . It has a name and it is called ... pain.

Do not do that.

[Front Runner]

Here is the issue.....
(1) In FOTRSU.v* Career Mode, BALAO class boat, (TAMBOR sometimes does not exhibit this issue), when you save game at midnight, with all of your navigational waypoints set, and it's dark.....

(2)......and then quit the game and load that save game again on game restart, and it is midnight, with all of your navigational waypoints set, and it's dark, in EXACTLY the same game state as it was in when you first saved it.....

(3).....and then you reload that very same save game that you just loaded, without quitting the game first, and it's midnight, BUT now, all of your waypoints are missing, and, instead it's, broad daylight, then this issue has serious AI Friendly and Enemy timing issues if you continue to play the erroneous, FUBAR load, not to mention that your Base time is now even more out of whack than "normal."

Is it daylight for you and dark of night for them? Or vice-versa?

(4)......and then you quit the game and reload that very same save game and everything is EXACTLY as it was when you saved it the first time. Midnight, waypoints, dark.

In other words, you only get one accurate save game load per game session. Any subsequent loads are FUBAR. IFAIK, it does not appear to be a WRITE issue (or an over-write issue.) It is a READ issue which occurs on any subsequent save game load made after the FIRST save game load.

You must quit the game and restart and load that save game to get the game into the same state as it was when you first saved it. The save game file is fine. There is nothing wrong with it. It reloads to the same game state, but ONLY the first time on game startup.

This is NOT the old "hey, why is it light out when my (base time) (onboard) clock says it's night time."

This issue affects ONLY FOTRSU.v* Career Mode (AFAIK). It does not affect WOTP Vanilla, nor does it affect TMO, TMO/RSRD, RFB, Ralles Mod Pack, nor many other variations of Vanilla, and Mod files I have tested. I don't believe it to be hard coded. If it were, all of the aforementioned games and mods would have the same issue. They don't!

[propbeanie]

I'm wondering about scene.dat, which has sun & moon phases (and the terns), but I haven't gone through the whole thing yet... surely it's not "backwards" with night is day and day is night?... - a quick comparison on one computer is that there is not difference between it and several other modded games, but I have not been on my computer with a "pristine" stock... If it does match "stock", why have it in the mod?...

[Front Runner]

Originally Posted by propbeanie

I'm wondering about scene.dat, which has sun & moon phases (and the terns), but I haven't gone through the whole thing yet... surely it's not "backwards" with night is day and day is night?... - a quick comparison on one computer is that there is not difference between it and several other modded games, but I have not been on my computer with a "pristine" stock... If it does match "stock", why have it in the mod?...

Propbeanie - I looked at scene.dat from the PRISTINE folder and from the FOTRSU.v80 RC2 folder. There are significant differences. I don't think the scene.dat is the issue though. If it were, I'd be unable to load ANY accurate save games.

For those of you interested and following this issue, The first save game load is OK. The second, third, fourth, etc. save game load, without first quitting the game and restarting is FUBAR. The data contained in the save game(s) are correct. The reading of the data is correct only on the first loading of that save game. The reading of the data is FUBAR if you re-load that "EXACTLY the same" save game. There is something very weird happening and we are trying to track it down.

You might not care whether or not the AI elements of this game are timed correctly to the day/night cycle, but I sure do! Especially with all of the detailed work that the FOTRSU team is doing! I'm not going to speak for Propbeanie, but I believe he cares as well.

If you are playing any versions or combinations of mods other than FOTRSU, then this issue is not affecting you (AFAIK).

[merc4ulfate]

Originally Posted by Front Runner

Propbeanie - I looked at scene.dat from the PRISTINE folder and from the FOTRSU.v80 RC2 folder. There are significant differences. I don't think the scene.dat is the issue though. If it were, I'd be unable to load ANY accurate save games.

For those of you interested and following this issue, The first save game load is OK. The second, third, fourth, etc. save game load, without first quitting the game and restarting is FUBAR. The data contained in the save game(s) are correct. The reading of the data is correct only on the first loading of that save game. The reading of the data is FUBAR if you re-load that "EXACTLY the same" save game. There is something very weird happening and we are trying to track it down.

You might not care whether or not the AI elements of this game are timed correctly to the day/night cycle, but I sure do! Especially with all of the detailed work that the FOTRSU team is doing! I'm not going to speak for Propbeanie, but I believe he cares as well.

If you are playing any versions or combinations of mods other than FOTRSU, then this issue is not affecting you (AFAIK).

Perhaps I will try to save a game and then replicate it. I never used saved games. My only save points are entering and exiting port so they are my only load points. If I die on patrol then I start over. I use the old dead is dead scheme when I play.

[propbeanie]

Originally Posted by Front Runner

Propbeanie - I looked at scene.dat from the PRISTINE folder and from the FOTRSU.v80 RC2 folder. There are significant differences. I don't think the scene.dat is the issue though. If it were, I'd be unable to load ANY accurate save games...

I found an interesting post:

leovampire's post in "A Question about the moon". Note the date. As for not thinking it's Scene.dat, I don't know what else it could be. FotRSU does not replace the Stock sim & dsd. There are some changes in the Shaders folder "TerrainMapPS.fx", but the files in the "Sky" folder below that are Stock files, like maybe someone was going to edit them at one point in time, but never did. I don't comprehend those script files, but they look like color / texture stuff... ?? I do remember though, getting a similar "time warp" effect in other mods, but I do not recall the circumstances. I have not had a chance to do the old FOTRS yet, but I did used to play that quite a bit...

[mikesn9]

Originally Posted by merc4ulfate

I do not even pay attention to time as a scale in this game. Most of it is a hard coded issue that will never be resolved. Is it visibly day or night is all I care about. The only reason I find time to be any value at all is if one is modding and you need to set it inside the mod for entrance and exits.

I was taught early on in this game to never save over a save . It has a name and it is called ... pain.

Do not do that.

Thanks Merc, I've been contemplating saying the same thing.. what matters in the game: Is it dark or light out? and: What is the weather?

[Front Runner]

Originally Posted by mikesn9

Thanks Merc, I've been contemplating saying the same thing.. what matters in the game: Is it dark or light out? and: What is the weather?

Please try to understand this particular issue. AFAIK, it affects only FOTRSU.v* and only in Career Mode BALAO, sometimes TAMBOR (boat testing continues.) See my simplified description of this issue here......

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...8&postcount=35