Did I read this correctly?

Bubblehead1980 · 04-17-17, 11:03 PM

Just checking, did the Japanese Navy's Sub Force really have a 75% casualty rate in WW 2?

nikimcbee · 04-18-17, 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

Just checking, did the Japanese Navy's Sub Force really have a 75% casualty rate in WW 2?

Hey! I don't remember the actual number, but they had a high loss rate. I'll dig it up from one of my Japanese sub books.

Bubblehead1980 · 04-18-17, 02:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikimcbee

Hey! I don't remember the actual number, but they had a high loss rate. I'll dig it up from one of my Japanese sub books.

I knew it was high, but 75% of their subs lost, that is staggering. I know Germans lost 700+ U boats, which compared to "only" 52 US boats. Loss rates are just staggering for them all.

propbeanie · 04-18-17, 05:25 AM

keltos01 or similar would have to correct me, but the only reason that I can see that the rate is listed as 75%, and not closer to 90%, is because the rate you have counts the boats that had been retired and were being used in training. See http://www.combinedfleet.com/sensuikan.htm for more. One Jyunsen B1 left at the end, or one RO boat left... Some of the classes no longer existed.

Sniper297 · 04-20-17, 05:30 PM

One problem with finding accurate figures for the IJN subs is if they include midget subs, like the 6 that were lost on Pearl Harbor day. Those were two man subs with one motor, lots of batteries, and no engine to recharge the batteries, so they had a max range of 80 miles and very few were recovered by the mother sub - once they were launched they were pretty much written off. Even worse the Kaiten, which was actually a one man kamikaze oversized long range torpedo, was classed as a midget submarine by the IJN. If they count every suicide mission as a loss that would tend to inflate the numbers.

German U-boats, the most common figure I've seen is 40,000 men served in U-boats in WWII, with 33,000 lost. That's more than 75%.

Sniper297 · 04-21-17, 12:27 AM

Reading a book about USS WARD (4 piper destroyer that sunk the midget sub a couple hours before the air raid on Dec 7) and it mentioned two items that seem significant;

1. A full size Japanese I boat sub patrolling 4 miles outside the harbor was lucky to avoid detection - "several times" in two days she lost trim and broached. Either something wrong with the sub or something wrong with the crew, a disaster waiting to happen.

2. On Dec 10th, a US dive bomber from ENTERPRISE sighted another Japanese I boat on the surface in the daytime near Hawaii, sank it with the loss of the entire 127 man crew.

Off to a bad start, my theory on Japanese sub losses and mediocre success (despite having superior torpedoes) is that they apparently weren't very good at submarine warfare.

04-17-17, 11:03 PM	#1
Bubblehead1980 Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Florida USA Posts: 7,104 Downloads: 605 Uploads: 44	Did I read this correctly? Just checking, did the Japanese Navy's Sub Force really have a 75% casualty rate in WW 2?

04-18-17, 05:25 AM	#4
propbeanie CTD - it's not just a job Join Date: May 2016 Location: One hour from Music City USA! Posts: 10,098 Downloads: 451 Uploads: 2	keltos01 or similar would have to correct me, but the only reason that I can see that the rate is listed as 75%, and not closer to 90%, is because the rate you have counts the boats that had been retired and were being used in training. See http://www.combinedfleet.com/sensuikan.htm for more. One Jyunsen B1 left at the end, or one RO boat left... Some of the classes no longer existed. __________________ "...and bollocks to the naysayers" - Jimbuna

04-20-17, 05:30 PM	#5
Sniper297 The Old Man Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Philadelphia Shipyard Brig Posts: 1,386 Downloads: 160 Uploads: 19	One problem with finding accurate figures for the IJN subs is if they include midget subs, like the 6 that were lost on Pearl Harbor day. Those were two man subs with one motor, lots of batteries, and no engine to recharge the batteries, so they had a max range of 80 miles and very few were recovered by the mother sub - once they were launched they were pretty much written off. Even worse the Kaiten, which was actually a one man kamikaze oversized long range torpedo, was classed as a midget submarine by the IJN. If they count every suicide mission as a loss that would tend to inflate the numbers. German U-boats, the most common figure I've seen is 40,000 men served in U-boats in WWII, with 33,000 lost. That's more than 75%.

04-21-17, 12:27 AM	#6
Sniper297 The Old Man Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Philadelphia Shipyard Brig Posts: 1,386 Downloads: 160 Uploads: 19	Reading a book about USS WARD (4 piper destroyer that sunk the midget sub a couple hours before the air raid on Dec 7) and it mentioned two items that seem significant; 1. A full size Japanese I boat sub patrolling 4 miles outside the harbor was lucky to avoid detection - "several times" in two days she lost trim and broached. Either something wrong with the sub or something wrong with the crew, a disaster waiting to happen. 2. On Dec 10th, a US dive bomber from ENTERPRISE sighted another Japanese I boat on the surface in the daytime near Hawaii, sank it with the loss of the entire 127 man crew. Off to a bad start, my theory on Japanese sub losses and mediocre success (despite having superior torpedoes) is that they apparently weren't very good at submarine warfare.