Should England have stayed out of WW1? A very good discussion, english, of course :)

[Catfish]

Just listened to this to and fro, good arguments both sides, and very fair – of course, since it takes place in England (and no joke meant at all here).

Having read some books i heard again being spoken of in those speeches, i really enjoyed this. IMHO it is well worth the time

[Betonov]

YES !!!

Why, Slovenia was a part of central powers
And a German victory would prevent the rise of hitler and stalin

[MGR1]

Plenty of pros and cons each way, but there is something of a consensus that Britain (and Empire) should have stayed out of it.

The war may well have been over by Christmas if we had elected not to get involved.

The Middle East probably wouldn't be in such a mess either.

Although if WW1 and WW2 did have a benefit is that they eliminated Prussian militarism and the power of the Junker aristocracy, to Germany's long term benefit.

If Wilhelm II hadn't been a breech birth, history could have been quite different.

Mike.

[Catfish]

Hello,
thanks for your opinions, but i really urge you to listen to what the speakers have to say (sorry if you did, i just thought you did not )

[Betonov]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Hello,
thanks for your opinions, but i really urge you to listen to what the speakers have to say (sorry if you did, i just thought you did not )

Speakers ???

I think you may have forgot to link a link

[MGR1]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Hello,
thanks for your opinions, but i really urge you to listen to what the speakers have to say (sorry if you did, i just thought you did not )

There were two programmes on BBC Two back in June presented by Professor Niall Ferguson and Max Hastings that covered the same subject:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01nl00x

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03wtmz6

There aren't any links in your first post, but are either of those the programme you were referring to?

Mike.

[Catfish]

Sorry, i forgot the link – fixed now

[ikalugin]

Originally Posted by Betonov

YES !!!

Why, Slovenia was a part of central powers
And a German victory would prevent the rise of hitler and stalin

Or a Russian victory for that matter.

[Betonov]

Originally Posted by ikalugin

Or a Russian victory for that matter.

A quick Russian victory or a quick defeat would have saved the Romanovs. Revolution was inevitable but perhaps it would have been more of a sudden shift to a constitutional monarchy than a full blown rebellion and civil war.

Dragging the war on would have brought in the same results, victory or defeat.



Let's not forget this was 1914 Germany. Ruthless as they were, their goal was not a conquest of Europe. Germany was just upholding their end of the deal in being an ally to Austria-Hungary and Wilhelm II even urged the Russian Tzar to forgo Serbia to prevent a war with Russia and consequently France.

In case France lost the war they'd loose colonies, no occupation, no concentration camps, no Hohenzoller eagle across the continent

[MGR1]

Originally Posted by Betonov

A quick Russian victory or a quick defeat would have saved the Romanovs. Revolution was inevitable but perhaps it would have been more of a sudden shift to a constitutional monarchy than a full blown rebellion and civil war.

A constitutional monarchy in Russia would have required another Tsar.

Nicholas II appears to have been psychologically incapable of accepting any limit on his power. His belief in his divine right to rule was as strong as any medieval monarch.

His inability to compromise doomed him and his dynasty.

In the same way, proper modernisation of the Dual Monarchy would have to have waited until Franz Joseph popped his clogs. Once that happened, history being different, Franz Ferdinand's proposals may have had a chance of working, assuming Karl became monarch and had time to implement it. But that would have required a short, victorious war against Serbia. Since the KuK Wehrmacht made heavy weather of their attack in the real world, I have my doubts if that would have occurred. Getting rid of von Hötzendorf and his monumental ego may have helped, but I think the basic War Plan used was faulty.

Mike.

[Betonov]

Originally Posted by MGR1

A constitutional monarchy in Russia would have required another Tsar.

Nicholas II appears to have been psychologically incapable of accepting any limit on his power. His belief in his divine right to rule was as strong as any medieval monarch.

His inability to compromise doomed him and his dynasty.

If the entire aristocratic class in Russia would slowly star to feel the heat, the the Tzar would have been forced from the inside of the elite to do some changes. Even medieval monarchs were forced by their own direct vasals to relegate some power.
The war just made the revolution more explosive and more lower class oriented (for lack of a better phrase)

Originally Posted by MGR1

In the same way, proper modernisation of the Dual Monarchy would have to have waited until Franz Joseph popped his clogs. Once that happened, history being different, Franz Ferdinand's proposals may have had a chance of working, assuming Karl became monarch and had time to implement it. But that would have required a short, victorious war against Serbia. Since the KuK Wehrmacht made heavy weather of their attack in the real world, I have my doubts if that would have occurred. Getting rid of von Hötzendorf and his monumental ego may have helped, but I think the basic War Plan used was faulty.

Yes.
Franz Ferdinand was a polar opposite of Franz Joseph.
He was a pacifist and would have tried to work out a diplomatic way to punish Serbia, since Serbia already wanted to pay some sort of reparations to prevent an all out war.
Unfortunately Franz Joseph was probably already half demented and lived in the glorious old times when war was a gentlemens game and not a slaughterhouse of a generation.
Plus Franz Ferdinand had a plan to relieve internal tension to give slavs, Czheks and Slovaks the same status inside the dual monarchy as the Hungarians, turning it into a federation of states ruled by the Habsburgs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...reater_Austria

It's a shame this mess happened. There's should be an age limit for emperors.