Help a new guy answer some tactics questions

Diego2301 · 01-02-13, 04:46 AM

Hello.

I was wondering if anyone knows... or has heard... or owns tutorials or the likes, for some naval tactics. I'm kind of new at this subsim thing (not gonna lie tho, I DO own the boxed version of Fast Attack, so that "kinda new" is relative), and I'm having a bit of trouble tactics wise.

I'm going through stoianm tutorials.

Here's the tip of the iceberg of my problem; I've spent one month (in-game time) at the campaign, no contacts. Now that I finally have some, I tried engageing one, but I found out that when a contact is reported as "moving away", no matter what I do I'll never catch up to him, and if I do is cause I'm surfaced and they end up spotting me and start zig zagging. SO... I decided only to care for those reported "closing", and so I did, I planned my nifty little route and ended up almost 90° of his course... THING IS, it's a merchant going fast as ******* about 25 knots and apparently making turns... IT WASN'T ME! I sneaked at slow ahead, silent running, etc. end up at about 3k meters away, I plan my shot accordingly, and my torpedoes always miss...

Now, maybe it's me, that I'm not getting close enough... or maybe it's the ship with it's crazy speed and wide turns, or maybe I should stick to PMDG's 737 and leave the navy... whatever it is, please help me, maybe I'm not too savvy at engaging so far.

Oh btw, yeah I only have those 3 kills from the tutorial on my record =( help!

I'm using TDW UI, real nav, RAOFB, Trevally's scripts and that's all you need to know =).

Thanks to anyone who takes the time to read this.

M4XDmG · 01-02-13, 09:57 AM

Hi!
I'm kinda on/off player and though I have played sh4 and 5 for years, there can be like a year between active playing "seasons". So I'm not very hardcore player, but Maybe there is something to adapt from my playing style to yours. Have to say that Everything I know is basicly read from this forum and I have a big respect for all people here who share their knowledge and mods!

But to the point. I play with sobers mod list, real nav and realism settings on except ext. cam, but that's just for the beauty and screenshots, I don't cheat with it. I navigate to the patrol zone surfaced, usually 9kts mainly because its easy to calculate in your head the distance you travel. You travel about 100km in 6 hours. When approaching hostile waters, I drop speed to 6-8kts and make dive every two hours to about 30-45m to use hydrophone. I usually don't tc over 32x when I'm patrolling. I listen few minutes, no luck, surface again and over again.

When finally something comes up, i turn my boat towards the contact and wait to see which direction it goes. No matter if it's going away. I don't calculate the exact speed and course of the contact at this point, just rough estimation where it is heading. If in ten minutes it's bearing changes for example 5 degrees, I take boat to surface, take course maybe fifteen degrees ahead it's bearing, order flank ahead and steam on maybe fifteen-twenty minutes, then below again, new listening and course correction accordingly. Eventually you get visual contact with the target.
Now is time to get to good firing position. Depending on the weather keep very good distance to target, that you barely see it. If it was moving away, you have to get around it. Make an educated gues of targets course. Choose your own course the way that target bearing is like 60-90 degrees on port or starboard. Try to keep the distance. I used watch officers range-estimation as a reference before, but after a while I didn't need it anymore. Silhouette of the ship or ships should get longer but not bigger. When they start toget shorter again, you've passed them. Continue until aob is about 30 degrees. Dive and decrease speed. Start to approach target, keep target about 45 degrees on your side. When you get closer be carefull with the periscope, don't keep it up too long at a time. When aob is almost zero (depending how far away they still are), stop and turn boat that bearing is almost 90 degrees. Wait and when they are close enough, start identifying and collecting data for torpedo launch. Make corrections for your boats location if necessary. Don't keep your periscope too high or too long on the surface. I try to launch always at point blank range, under 1000 meters, so my data doesn't need to be 100 pecent correct.

That's about it, sorry bad language and if it's hard to follow, I got suddenly busy while writting this! But all in all, this method is based on estimations and guessing and I like the rough feel of doing things!

Diego2301 · 01-02-13, 06:01 PM

Thanks for the reply, I usually just sped to the target and I guess that's how the "moving away" targets got away, cause I got too close, since on the surface is how you get the most knots, I'd never tought about circunventing the target while keeping my distance to avoid sound contact, thanks!

My question now is how do you get around a target that is moving away at fast speed? and I'm still in doubt of what a more experienced player would do in the scenario I'm stuck in (read my first post).

Thanks again.

M4XDmG · 01-04-13, 04:49 PM

Hello again!

You might have noticed that unlike modern nuclear subs, WWII subs are more like surface vessels with ability to dive,for a relatively short period of time. They are submersibles, not actual submarines. Later snorkel helps in this regard, but still. They are also slower under the surface. Not just for the speed, you have to be as much on the surface as possible to keep batteries charged, air tanks full and CO2 levels low etc. so you are in best possible situation to sneak away when destroyer is pinging you and you just can't surface.

Your speed in surface can be 16-17 at ahead flank. If your target merchant is really going 25knots

and zig zag, it cannot and won't be doing that for long. If it thinks it lost you (and cannot detect you anymore) eventually it will return to it's original course (before it saw you) and slow down to cruise speed maybe 6-10 knots. So take some distance and follow target with your hydrophone for a while. When target returns to normal routine, make a new attempt to get to the firing position.

Also, I would not be worried with your engine sound when there are only merchants. They can't hear you. But they can see your scope and if you move too fast while your scope is up, they can spot its wake.

When surfaced, your ships silhouette is so low that you should see enemy well before they can see you, especially when boat is facing straight to the target. Also usefull is Decks awash command, that applied you leave only conning tower above surface. But you lose then much of your speed.

Check the awesome four bearings mehod by Kuikueg if haven't already for more professional and pecise operation with distant targets.

And here is really tons of cool stuff, manuals, patrol reports etc.:
http://www.hnsa.org/doc/index.htm

Good luck and happy hunting!

Diego2301 · 01-09-13, 04:42 AM

Thanks a lot!

Yeah, I noticed the 4 bearings method while following Stoianm's tutorials, thing is, my version of the game is Steam's, and so I can't get my hands on the SH5.exe patch that'll allow me to drag line ends on the nav map, circles, etc., so the four bearings method just got as hard as trying to match 2 non orthogonal lines in autocad just by eye.

And yeah, I've been following Dangerous Waters for a few days now, much more complete than Fast Attack, and it's totally my idea as well that U-boats where surface ships designed to dive for a while, while modern subs are designed to BE underwater, even designwise everything points to it (teadrop shape)-

I have a NEW problem. See TDW's SOAN book? well, I clicked on the X mark on the top right corner of it, now everytime I pop up my charts the SOAN is gone, how do I get it back??

Thank you for reading this.

gap · 01-09-13, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diego2301

my version of the game is Steam's, and so I can't get my hands on the SH5.exe patch that'll allow me to drag line ends on the nav map, circles, etc.

You don't need any patch for using your plotting tools: this is a vanilla feature. What TDW's patch does, is letting you to change the color of plotted lines, in order to make them more visible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diego2301

I have a NEW problem. See TDW's SOAN book? well, I clicked on the X mark on the top right corner of it, now everytime I pop up my charts the SOAN is gone, how do I get it back??

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...postcount=7245

I hope you enjoy the game, Diego

Diego2301 · 01-09-13, 12:51 PM

Thanks Mr. Gap!

So if I don't really need SH5.exe's patch, maybe you can tell me how can I drag my compass circles/ends of ruler lines/origins of protractor angles just like Stoianm does in his tutorials please? I'd be grateful.

Thanks a bunch again!

gap · 01-09-13, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diego2301

Thanks Mr. Gap!

"Mr Gap"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diego2301

So if I don't really need SH5.exe's patch, maybe you can tell me how can I drag my compass circles/ends of ruler lines/origins of protractor angles just like Stoianm does in his tutorials please? I'd be grateful.

If I remember correctly, this is done by clicking on their ends and dragging them...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diego2301

Thanks a bunch again!

My pleasure, Mr. Diego

P.S: you can call me simply gap, or by my proper name, Gabriele, if you prefer

01-02-13, 04:46 AM	#1
Diego2301 Swabbie Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 10 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	Help a new guy answer some tactics questions Hello. I was wondering if anyone knows... or has heard... or owns tutorials or the likes, for some naval tactics. I'm kind of new at this subsim thing (not gonna lie tho, I DO own the boxed version of Fast Attack, so that "kinda new" is relative), and I'm having a bit of trouble tactics wise. I'm going through stoianm tutorials. Here's the tip of the iceberg of my problem; I've spent one month (in-game time) at the campaign, no contacts. Now that I finally have some, I tried engageing one, but I found out that when a contact is reported as "moving away", no matter what I do I'll never catch up to him, and if I do is cause I'm surfaced and they end up spotting me and start zig zagging. SO... I decided only to care for those reported "closing", and so I did, I planned my nifty little route and ended up almost 90° of his course... THING IS, it's a merchant going fast as ******* about 25 knots and apparently making turns... IT WASN'T ME! I sneaked at slow ahead, silent running, etc. end up at about 3k meters away, I plan my shot accordingly, and my torpedoes always miss... Now, maybe it's me, that I'm not getting close enough... or maybe it's the ship with it's crazy speed and wide turns, or maybe I should stick to PMDG's 737 and leave the navy... whatever it is, please help me, maybe I'm not too savvy at engaging so far. Oh btw, yeah I only have those 3 kills from the tutorial on my record =( help! I'm using TDW UI, real nav, RAOFB, Trevally's scripts and that's all you need to know =). Thanks to anyone who takes the time to read this.

01-02-13, 09:57 AM	#2
M4XDmG Helmsman Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Finland Posts: 108 Downloads: 106 Uploads: 0	Hi! I'm kinda on/off player and though I have played sh4 and 5 for years, there can be like a year between active playing "seasons". So I'm not very hardcore player, but Maybe there is something to adapt from my playing style to yours. Have to say that Everything I know is basicly read from this forum and I have a big respect for all people here who share their knowledge and mods! But to the point. I play with sobers mod list, real nav and realism settings on except ext. cam, but that's just for the beauty and screenshots, I don't cheat with it. I navigate to the patrol zone surfaced, usually 9kts mainly because its easy to calculate in your head the distance you travel. You travel about 100km in 6 hours. When approaching hostile waters, I drop speed to 6-8kts and make dive every two hours to about 30-45m to use hydrophone. I usually don't tc over 32x when I'm patrolling. I listen few minutes, no luck, surface again and over again. When finally something comes up, i turn my boat towards the contact and wait to see which direction it goes. No matter if it's going away. I don't calculate the exact speed and course of the contact at this point, just rough estimation where it is heading. If in ten minutes it's bearing changes for example 5 degrees, I take boat to surface, take course maybe fifteen degrees ahead it's bearing, order flank ahead and steam on maybe fifteen-twenty minutes, then below again, new listening and course correction accordingly. Eventually you get visual contact with the target. Now is time to get to good firing position. Depending on the weather keep very good distance to target, that you barely see it. If it was moving away, you have to get around it. Make an educated gues of targets course. Choose your own course the way that target bearing is like 60-90 degrees on port or starboard. Try to keep the distance. I used watch officers range-estimation as a reference before, but after a while I didn't need it anymore. Silhouette of the ship or ships should get longer but not bigger. When they start toget shorter again, you've passed them. Continue until aob is about 30 degrees. Dive and decrease speed. Start to approach target, keep target about 45 degrees on your side. When you get closer be carefull with the periscope, don't keep it up too long at a time. When aob is almost zero (depending how far away they still are), stop and turn boat that bearing is almost 90 degrees. Wait and when they are close enough, start identifying and collecting data for torpedo launch. Make corrections for your boats location if necessary. Don't keep your periscope too high or too long on the surface. I try to launch always at point blank range, under 1000 meters, so my data doesn't need to be 100 pecent correct. That's about it, sorry bad language and if it's hard to follow, I got suddenly busy while writting this! But all in all, this method is based on estimations and guessing and I like the rough feel of doing things!

01-02-13, 06:01 PM	#3
Diego2301 Swabbie Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 10 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	Thanks for the reply, I usually just sped to the target and I guess that's how the "moving away" targets got away, cause I got too close, since on the surface is how you get the most knots, I'd never tought about circunventing the target while keeping my distance to avoid sound contact, thanks! My question now is how do you get around a target that is moving away at fast speed? and I'm still in doubt of what a more experienced player would do in the scenario I'm stuck in (read my first post). Thanks again.

01-04-13, 04:49 PM	#4
M4XDmG Helmsman Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Finland Posts: 108 Downloads: 106 Uploads: 0	Hello again! You might have noticed that unlike modern nuclear subs, WWII subs are more like surface vessels with ability to dive,for a relatively short period of time. They are submersibles, not actual submarines. Later snorkel helps in this regard, but still. They are also slower under the surface. Not just for the speed, you have to be as much on the surface as possible to keep batteries charged, air tanks full and CO2 levels low etc. so you are in best possible situation to sneak away when destroyer is pinging you and you just can't surface. Your speed in surface can be 16-17 at ahead flank. If your target merchant is really going 25knots and zig zag, it cannot and won't be doing that for long. If it thinks it lost you (and cannot detect you anymore) eventually it will return to it's original course (before it saw you) and slow down to cruise speed maybe 6-10 knots. So take some distance and follow target with your hydrophone for a while. When target returns to normal routine, make a new attempt to get to the firing position. Also, I would not be worried with your engine sound when there are only merchants. They can't hear you. But they can see your scope and if you move too fast while your scope is up, they can spot its wake. When surfaced, your ships silhouette is so low that you should see enemy well before they can see you, especially when boat is facing straight to the target. Also usefull is Decks awash command, that applied you leave only conning tower above surface. But you lose then much of your speed. Check the awesome four bearings mehod by Kuikueg if haven't already for more professional and pecise operation with distant targets. And here is really tons of cool stuff, manuals, patrol reports etc.: http://www.hnsa.org/doc/index.htm Good luck and happy hunting!

01-09-13, 04:42 AM	#5
Diego2301 Swabbie Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 10 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	Thanks a lot! Yeah, I noticed the 4 bearings method while following Stoianm's tutorials, thing is, my version of the game is Steam's, and so I can't get my hands on the SH5.exe patch that'll allow me to drag line ends on the nav map, circles, etc., so the four bearings method just got as hard as trying to match 2 non orthogonal lines in autocad just by eye. And yeah, I've been following Dangerous Waters for a few days now, much more complete than Fast Attack, and it's totally my idea as well that U-boats where surface ships designed to dive for a while, while modern subs are designed to BE underwater, even designwise everything points to it (teadrop shape)- I have a NEW problem. See TDW's SOAN book? well, I clicked on the X mark on the top right corner of it, now everytime I pop up my charts the SOAN is gone, how do I get it back?? Thank you for reading this.

01-09-13, 12:51 PM	#7
Diego2301 Swabbie Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 10 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	Thanks Mr. Gap! So if I don't really need SH5.exe's patch, maybe you can tell me how can I drag my compass circles/ends of ruler lines/origins of protractor angles just like Stoianm does in his tutorials please? I'd be grateful. Thanks a bunch again!