Bicycle injuries: Is the right-of-way fight getting ugly?

Onkel Neal · 04-20-12, 06:16 PM

Bicycle injuries: Is the right-of-way fight getting ugly?

They say bicyclists have a right to the road same as cars, but common sense would dictate otherwise. I never understood bicycle enthusiasts who casually pedal along in the middle of a lane, acting like there's no hazard here, while 4000 lb cars roar past. Dude, you are only going 18 mph in a 45, get outta the way!

Legal or not, if they cannot do the speed limit, they should not be there any more than pedestrians. Use something called the sidewalk.

As a motorcycle rider who never gets in the way of traffic, I also never ride along with that bicyclist mentality: I have a right to be here. Baloney. I am a motorcycle rider, I am faster than cagers, but I can be killed 25 times more likely, and I ride that way. Bicyclists should rethink their attitude. When it's you and a car, the car always has the right of way.

And bicyclists are surprised when they get run over. I bet squirrels and possums feel the same way.

Takeda Shingen · 04-20-12, 06:23 PM

I cycle regularly. Neal, you are absolutely correct. Protocol and rights be damned--the heavier vehicle always has the right of way. Keeping that in mind will always make you a safe rider.

Platapus · 04-20-12, 06:39 PM

In an accident between a bike and a car, even a tie is bad news for the rider.

nikimcbee · 04-20-12, 06:46 PM

Just for you Neal.

Skybird · 04-20-12, 06:53 PM

Hit-and-run, called "Fahrerflucht" over here, would bring you into very serious legal trouble if you get caught, the same for "unterlassene Hilfeleistung".

Many communities and cities in Germany since longer time invested into building special bicycle infrastructure, from the marks on the road that rdeserve a small lane only for bikes, to own lanes between car road and pedestrian's pavement. Also, rights and prohibitions are quite clearly regulated over here.

Problem is that many people behave stupid and careless when riding a bicycle, and do things they would not do in a car. Jumping red traffic lights, stopping not at the halt-line but driving almost onto the crossroad and then blicking the crossing bike traffic. Cutting the corner and the others have to emergency-brake. Driving rude, in dense crowds, almost assaulting pedestrians. Driving alcoholised, and so on.

Sidelanes must be used over here only when a traffic sign calls for that, else you have the choice whether to use that or the main road. Using sidelanes on the other side of the road is prohibited in general if not allowed by a traffic sign.

It depends on the place. Some cities have embedded bike-friendly infrastructure into their general traffic infrastructure, others lag behind. I have the luck that I live in an extremely bicycle-friendly city with plenty of specialised infrastrucre for bikes both inside and outside of town. It is the most bicycle-friendly town in Germany and one of the two or three cities in all europe that have more bikes than any other european city, competing for this ranking with Amsterdam and Copenhagen only.

The growing rate of bicycle accidents we have involves many children. The rise also can be explaiojned becasue the number of bicycle riders rises i general: more and mor epeople prefer it as an alternative to using a car or public transportation over typical in-town distances.

My advise: obey relevant traffic rules the very same way you would obey them when driving a car. Drive defensively, and not in the middle of the lane, but at the side. Do not scare pedestrians, and give up the right of way generously instead of enforcing it without any need - saves your nerves. Search eye contact with car drivers. Be friendly - you'll be surprised how often I see my smile or gesture getting returned from car drivers or bus drivers. Have good lights and brakes, always in good condition. Behave predictable.

The only people in traffic that give me trouble time and again - are bicycle riders. And when they come in a Rudel, I ring general quarters immediately. A holiday group of bicycle riders is a nightmare, since all cognitive functions and cortical activity get supressed the more the bigger the Rudel is.

u crank · 04-20-12, 06:53 PM

I feel sorry for the people in the link who were killed or injured but I have to ask this question: Who has the 'right' to the road? Here and I suspect it is the same in most places, I have to pay to drive on the roads. I have to register my vehicle, get a drivers license, buy insurance, and get my car inspected and repaired yearly. A pedestrian or cyclist gets a free pass.

Until cyclists pay the same as I do, I believe I have the right to the road. That being said I have to watch out for these people and some of them think they are invincible. So please watch out for the people who pay to use the road.

Skybird · 04-20-12, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by u crank

I feel sorry for the people in the link who were killed or injured but I have to ask this question: Who has the 'right' to the road? Here and I suspect it is the same in most places, I have to pay to drive on the roads. I have to register my vehicle, get a drivers license, buy insurance, and get my car inspected and repaired yearly. A pedestrian or cyclist gets a free pass.

Until cyclists pay the same as I do, I believe I have the right to the road. That being said I have to watch out for these people and some of them think they are invincible. So please watch out for the people who pay to use the road.

Sorry, but usually roads are no car-exclusive territory, although some car-maniacs tend to think so. Roads get maintained and payed and payed for by the general tax pool, btw, and taxes on gasoline are not exclusively tied to the purpose of being spend for car infrastructure. What you need to invest into your car's technical reliability, is just this: car reliability and security so that you do not move around in a rolling weapon that can go lose any moment and poses a mobile risk to other people. For the same reason, a bicycle needs to be maintained as well.

We live in a car-crazy world. But crowded city centers do not suffer when putting that insanity up for debate. The traffic jams, stinking emissions, noise and shortages in parking lots do not get caused by bicycles, but too many cars.

Ducimus · 04-20-12, 07:15 PM

In a court of law, yeah sure, the dude on the bycicle has the right of way. However- the universal rule of the road is the same regardless of laws or countries..... That universal rules is:

He who's biggest wins.

A court of law isn't going to do you any good if your dead.

u crank · 04-20-12, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

Sorry, but usually roads are no car-exclusive territory, although some car-maniacs tend to think so. Roads get maintained and payed and payed for by the general tax pool, btw, and taxes on gasoline are not exclusively tied to the purpose of being spend for car infrastructure. What you need to invest into your car's technical reliability, is just this: car reliability and security so that you do not move around in a rolling weapon that can go lose any moment and poses a mobile risk to other people. For the same reason, a bicycle needs to be maintained as well.

We live in a car-crazy world. But crowded city centers do not suffer when putting that insanity up for debate. The traffic jams, stinking emissions, noise and shortages in parking lots do not get caused by bicycles, but too many cars.

I believe you missed my point Skybird. I have to pass a drivers exam and then pay to have it renewed. Cyclists don't. I have to insure myself and my vehicle for liability if I injure someone else. Cyclists don't. I am forced by law to maintain my vehicle in safe working order. Cyclists are not.

I believe that if cyclists had to pay to use the road you would see a lot less of them. If cyclists had to prove that they know the rules of the road you would see less of them. If cyclists had to buy liability insurance you would see less of them.

This particular argument has nothing to do with pollution or too many cars but about common sense.

Sailor Steve · 04-20-12, 07:46 PM

^ ^ ^

Also, at least here in the States, yearly registration includes a tax which goes to maintaining the roads. Motorists pay for the upkeep, cyclists don't.

Onkel Neal · 04-20-12, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

I cycle regularly. Neal, you are absolutely correct. Protocol and rights be damned--the heavier vehicle always has the right of way. Keeping that in mind will always make you a safe rider.

Yes, and that's how bike riders could help themselves. I'm sure many do, but very often I come up behind a fellow who is counting on me to see him. And as a MC rider, that's flirting with disaster. Riding on 2 wheels takes defensive driving to a whole new level; I call it combat riding--it's a fight to the death and I win by not letting them smear me across the tarmac.

Quote:

Originally Posted by soopaman2

I do not wish to start a crapstorm, but being a city driver, I kinda hate bicyclists.

They hold laws that protect them more than car drivers, yet do not eat the same dooky-pie, that a driver does for running red lights and stop signs.

They run a stop sign, car plows into them, and local press kills the driver as some maniac. When they were simply obeying laws of the road.

It's my goal to avoid hitting any bicycle riders, but I agree with you, they should do their part to make it easier not to hit them.

Stealhead · 04-20-12, 10:19 PM

I live in Florida in a rural county and as far I can recall over the past 10 or so years every fatal motor vehicle vs bike incident the cycle rider was found at fault almost every time they where intoxicated or under the influence of some drug.

One guy had actually been charged for a DUI(or what ever riding a bike while intoxicated is it is illegal) but what can they do beyond fine you take your bike away?Anyway this fellow actually had been hit more than once before as well obviously he survived the previous encounters at any rate every time the guy was drunk and all over the road and either suddenly rode into traffic (he always rode at night with no lights of any kind in dark clothing) or rode into the sides of vehicles.

I also have a friend that is a paramedic in volusia county(Daytona Beach) and he says that the overwhelming majority of motor vehicle vs bike accidents are the riders fault or both where at fault.

I am not being anti bike rider but they need to ride safely and extremely defensively like a good motorcyclist does they should assume that no one sees them and always be alert.

nikimcbee · 04-20-12, 11:19 PM

I didn't know Texas had those militant biker types, well, maybe in Austin. They're the ones in the video. Yo find them in Seattle, Portlandia, and San Fran

.

On a side note Portlandia city council was pushing for some law, where bikers didn't need to stop for stop signs.

kraznyi_oktjabr · 04-21-12, 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikimcbee

On a side note Portlandia city council was pushing for some law, where bikers didn't need to stop for stop signs.

Is there statute for removing from office due lunacy?

mookiemookie · 04-20-12, 07:08 PM

Agreed. Bike riders are a hazard, regardless of how entitled they feel to the road. They're slower than traffic, they cause dangerous situations by forcing cars to go around them or slow to a crawl behind them, and they should be relegated to designated bike lanes.

I can understand why they aren't allowed on sidewalks - they can injure pedestrians, because they're bigger and faster than them. Kind of like the same way that cars are when they're in the street.

One of the CNN commenters on that article said it best:

"The laws of man may favor you, but the laws of physics mean in any altercation you will be a pancake."

04-20-12, 06:16 PM	#1
Onkel Neal Born to Run Silent Join Date: Jan 1997 Location: Cougar Trap, Texas Posts: 21,385 Downloads: 541 Uploads: 224	Bicycle injuries: Is the right-of-way fight getting ugly? Bicycle injuries: Is the right-of-way fight getting ugly? They say bicyclists have a right to the road same as cars, but common sense would dictate otherwise. I never understood bicycle enthusiasts who casually pedal along in the middle of a lane, acting like there's no hazard here, while 4000 lb cars roar past. Dude, you are only going 18 mph in a 45, get outta the way! Legal or not, if they cannot do the speed limit, they should not be there any more than pedestrians. Use something called the sidewalk. As a motorcycle rider who *never* gets in the way of traffic, I also never ride along with that bicyclist mentality: I have a right to be here. Baloney. I am a motorcycle rider, I am faster than cagers, but I can be killed 25 times more likely, and I ride that way. Bicyclists should rethink their attitude. When it's you and a car, the car always has the right of way. And bicyclists are surprised when they get run over. I bet squirrels and possums feel the same way.

04-20-12, 06:39 PM	#3
Platapus Fleet Admiral Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 19,380 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 0	In an accident between a bike and a car, even a tie is bad news for the rider. __________________ abusus non tollit usum - A right should NOT be withheld from people on the basis that some tend to abuse that right.

04-20-12, 06:46 PM	#4
nikimcbee Fleet Admiral Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Patroling the Slot. Posts: 17,952 Downloads: 90 Uploads: 0	Just for you Neal. __________________

04-20-12, 06:53 PM	#5
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,664 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Hit-and-run, called "Fahrerflucht" over here, would bring you into very serious legal trouble if you get caught, the same for "unterlassene Hilfeleistung". Many communities and cities in Germany since longer time invested into building special bicycle infrastructure, from the marks on the road that rdeserve a small lane only for bikes, to own lanes between car road and pedestrian's pavement. Also, rights and prohibitions are quite clearly regulated over here. Problem is that many people behave stupid and careless when riding a bicycle, and do things they would not do in a car. Jumping red traffic lights, stopping not at the halt-line but driving almost onto the crossroad and then blicking the crossing bike traffic. Cutting the corner and the others have to emergency-brake. Driving rude, in dense crowds, almost assaulting pedestrians. Driving alcoholised, and so on. Sidelanes must be used over here only when a traffic sign calls for that, else you have the choice whether to use that or the main road. Using sidelanes on the other side of the road is prohibited in general if not allowed by a traffic sign. It depends on the place. Some cities have embedded bike-friendly infrastructure into their general traffic infrastructure, others lag behind. I have the luck that I live in an extremely bicycle-friendly city with plenty of specialised infrastrucre for bikes both inside and outside of town. It is the most bicycle-friendly town in Germany and one of the two or three cities in all europe that have more bikes than any other european city, competing for this ranking with Amsterdam and Copenhagen only. The growing rate of bicycle accidents we have involves many children. The rise also can be explaiojned becasue the number of bicycle riders rises i general: more and mor epeople prefer it as an alternative to using a car or public transportation over typical in-town distances. My advise: obey relevant traffic rules the very same way you would obey them when driving a car. Drive defensively, and not in the middle of the lane, but at the side. Do not scare pedestrians, and give up the right of way generously instead of enforcing it without any need - saves your nerves. Search eye contact with car drivers. Be friendly - you'll be surprised how often I see my smile or gesture getting returned from car drivers or bus drivers. Have good lights and brakes, always in good condition. Behave predictable. The only people in traffic that give me trouble time and again - are bicycle riders. And when they come in a Rudel, I ring general quarters immediately. A holiday group of bicycle riders is a nightmare, since all cognitive functions and cortical activity get supressed the more the bigger the Rudel is. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

04-20-12, 06:53 PM	#6
u crank Old enough to know better Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Prince Edward Island Posts: 11,747 Downloads: 136 Uploads: 0	I feel sorry for the people in the link who were killed or injured but I have to ask this question: Who has the 'right' to the road? Here and I suspect it is the same in most places, I have to pay to drive on the roads. I have to register my vehicle, get a drivers license, buy insurance, and get my car inspected and repaired yearly. A pedestrian or cyclist gets a free pass. Until cyclists pay the same as I do, I believe I have the right to the road. That being said I have to watch out for these people and some of them think they are invincible. So please watch out for the people who pay to use the road. __________________ “Two possibilities exist: either we are alone in the Universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying.” ― Arthur C. Clarke

04-20-12, 06:23 PM	#2
Takeda Shingen Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2000 Posts: 8,643 Downloads: 19 Uploads: 0	I cycle regularly. Neal, you are absolutely correct. Protocol and rights be damned--the heavier vehicle always has the right of way. Keeping that in mind will always make you a safe rider.

04-20-12, 07:15 PM	#8
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	In a court of law, yeah sure, the dude on the bycicle has the right of way. However- the universal rule of the road is the same regardless of laws or countries..... That universal rules is: He who's biggest wins. A court of law isn't going to do you any good if your dead.

04-20-12, 07:46 PM	#10
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	^ ^ ^ Also, at least here in the States, yearly registration includes a tax which goes to maintaining the roads. Motorists pay for the upkeep, cyclists don't. __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

04-20-12, 10:19 PM	#12
Stealhead Navy Seal Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Kentucky Posts: 5,421 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	I live in Florida in a rural county and as far I can recall over the past 10 or so years every fatal motor vehicle vs bike incident the cycle rider was found at fault almost every time they where intoxicated or under the influence of some drug. One guy had actually been charged for a DUI(or what ever riding a bike while intoxicated is it is illegal) but what can they do beyond fine you take your bike away?Anyway this fellow actually had been hit more than once before as well obviously he survived the previous encounters at any rate every time the guy was drunk and all over the road and either suddenly rode into traffic (he always rode at night with no lights of any kind in dark clothing) or rode into the sides of vehicles. I also have a friend that is a paramedic in volusia county(Daytona Beach) and he says that the overwhelming majority of motor vehicle vs bike accidents are the riders fault or both where at fault. I am not being anti bike rider but they need to ride safely and extremely defensively like a good motorcyclist does they should assume that no one sees them and always be alert.

04-20-12, 11:19 PM	#13
nikimcbee Fleet Admiral Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Patroling the Slot. Posts: 17,952 Downloads: 90 Uploads: 0	I didn't know Texas had those militant biker types, well, maybe in Austin. They're the ones in the video. Yo find them in Seattle, Portlandia, and San Fran. On a side note Portlandia city council was pushing for some law, where bikers didn't need to stop for stop signs. __________________

04-20-12, 07:08 PM	#15
mookiemookie Navy Seal Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 9,404 Downloads: 105 Uploads: 1	Agreed. Bike riders are a hazard, regardless of how entitled they feel to the road. They're slower than traffic, they cause dangerous situations by forcing cars to go around them or slow to a crawl behind them, and they should be relegated to designated bike lanes. I can understand why they aren't allowed on sidewalks - they can injure pedestrians, because they're bigger and faster than them. Kind of like the same way that cars are when they're in the street. One of the CNN commenters on that article said it best: "The laws of man may favor you, but the laws of physics mean in any altercation you will be a pancake." __________________ They don’t think it be like it is, but it do. Want more U-boat Kaleun portraits for your SH3 Commander Profiles? Download the SH3 Commander Portrait Pack here.