[REL] Longer sinking times for TMO 2.5

[Bilge_Rat]

version 2 is up:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/ti7b7a...LST_TMO_v2.zip

version 1: This mod will substantially increase the sinking time of ships in TMO 2.5. The basic idea and parameters come from the "Better and Realistic Flotation" mod made by Arclight for SH5 which have been tweaked for SH4. The mod increases the flooding time of various underwater compartments so sinking is more progressive.

version 2 takes a more novel approach: The HP damage generated by each torpedo has been reduced by roughly 50%, but the various ship's compartments have been tweaked so the flooding damage generated by each torpedo remains about the same. This roughly doubles the amount of Hit Points each ship has and makes it less likely it will sink from HP depletion and more likely it will sink from progressive flooding, since it now takes roughly twice as many torpedoes to deplete all the hit points. This also has the added benefit of delaying the "ship sunk" message in many cases.

The flotability factor of various ship's compartments has also been adjusted to accelerate sinking when much of the ship is flooded. This makes it less likely that a ship will hang around when its deck is already under water.

What does this mean in practice?

For small merchants and warships (DE, DD), one torpedo still more or less garantees a kill. For larger ships, 3-4 torpedoes also basically garantees a kill.

Where it gets interesting is if you only get 1-2 torpedo hits on a larger ship. Without the "ship sunk" message and with the progressive flooding, you now have to judge whether to use 1-2 extra torpedoes to finish the job or wait to see if it sinks by itself.

This mod works well with TheDarkWraith's "Ship Damage from Fire" mod.

All feedback will be appreciated.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

This mod will substantially increase the sinking time of ships in TMO 2.5. The basic idea and parameters come from the "Better and Realistic Flotation" mod made by Arclight for SH5 which have been tweaked for SH4. The mod increases the flooding time of various underwater compartments so sinking is more progressive.

I have tested it on various ships and it works pretty well in most situations. Many times, ships which appear to be undamaged after a torpedo hit will sink after 20-30 minutes or more from progressive flooding.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/jfdtxk...l5/LST_TMO.zip

All feedback will be appreciated.

Very cool, I will give it a try when I go back to the PTO side of things, playing U boats in Atlantic currently.

[DrBeast]

Sounds interesting. Saw your post about this over at the NSM thread, I think I'll give it a try. I feel the ships in TMO do sink a bit too fast, at least for someone who has been used to NSM (I only just ported over to 1.5).

[Bilge_Rat]

yes, hoping to get some feedback when players have had a chance to try it out. Having tried out stock, NSM, RFB/NYGM and now TMO it feels as though, because of the way the SH damage model is designed, you can have realistic sinking times or realistic looking sinkings, but you can't have both at the same time. I am trying to find the sweet spot between the two.

[DrBeast]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

yes, hoping to get some feedback when players have had a chance to try it out. Having tried out stock, NSM, RFB/NYGM and now TMO it feels as though, because of the way the SH damage model is designed, you can have realistic sinking times or realistic looking sinkings, but you can't have both at the same time. I am trying to find the sweet spot between the two.

If memory serves, just playing with the flooding time in Zones.cfg is not enough. NSM and RFB/NYGM had to rework the .zon files of all ships extensively, and Ducimus never went there with TMO because it's just too much work for one man to do alone.

[Bilge_Rat]

I am not interested in replicating NSM or NYGM, those mods already exist and involved a massive amount of work. I am trying to see if I can develop an alternative approach. Zones.cfg is a key file since it is central to the damage model of all ships.

I found an old post by Elanaiba, one of the game designers, which explained what the variables in the Zones.cfg file mean:

Ok, now about the zones.cfg entry:

[NSKeel] - this is the name of the zone. I guess you can use it to find the zone index at the start of the zones.cfg file, then search for that index inside a .zon file. What good would that be? Dunno...

Category=Keel - if this zone is part of a "targetable" category in the recoginition manual, then this would be set here.

Multiplier=5.0 - the torpedo's explosion is amplified this number of times when a critical effect is achieved. This can be done by a (selecting a critical location in the recognition manual and actually hitting it; pure luck - see below)

Flotability=50.0 - How much of a "ship's" flotability is lost when a compartment of this type is completely flooded.... Out of 100%. Keep in mind though that a ships has a buoyancy reserve above water

HitPoints=120

Destructible=No - when this "compartment" is destroyed (HP = 0) the parent is destroyed or not. Yes = Good for masts, cargo, breakable things.

Armor Level=20 - How tough is the skin of this thingie... See comments below

Critic Flotation=0.99 - Defines how much damage this compartment must receive before starting to take flood. Out of 1 - In this case the compartment must be completely destroyed - it's not set to 1 cause there's a bug with that. Don't use 1 either in your experiments.

Critical=Yes - Do we really want this to be a critical compartment?

Critical Chance=1.0 - Chance that when this compartment is hit is destroyed with a torpedo, without using the manual, a critical effect is achieved. Out of 1 (this is the keel wich explains the 1 out of 1)

FloodingTime=120 - How much time in seconds it takes for this compartment to fill with water - WHEN IT IS COMPLETELY DESTROYED. When damage is lower, time increases

CargoType=None - Does this compartment carry special cargo? None/Ammo/Fuel/ Custom <- Set by mission editor.


Now, a little discussion about armor.

You often see the "-1" value. What it means? It means it's taken from the "parent". So if a compartment set on the ship has armor = -1, then it assumes the Armor value set for the compartment type.

If the type (as defined in zones.cfg) has Armor = -1, then it takes the armor value of the "ship hull". So a turret with Armor = -1 on a ship with armor = 30, will, in fact have 30 armor, not infinite. The same goes for the sub compartments. Their taking armor values from the hull.

How does armor work?

If a projectile has lower Armor Piercing value than a compartment, technically it won't penetrate. There's no variation of AP with velocity. But AP values are not set in stone, in fact there's a 20% random variation (see Penetration Threshold=0.2 value).

Explosion's of projectiles that do not penetrate (DCs are an example but not the only one) need to compare their total HP with the armor to be defeated. In fact, the explosion needs to reach the armor wall with a force (in HP) 4 times greater than the armour value.

In other words, HP > 4 * A or you're bust. If it is, the explosion breaks the wall and damages the compartment.

Now, to discuss the Armor = 15 problem - it's obvious that you'll get beaten much easier on the surface. But you will also get beaten from much farther UNDER the water. Since explosion force (HP) decreases with distance, you need to be close to a DC in order to take flood damage from it (walls broken).

With a 10 points or so decrease in Armor, you get a few meters extra DC damage radius. And this will hurt. Make sure you know what you're doing.


Hope this helps,

Dan

http://www.subsim.com/phpBB_archive1...hlight=#303470

The stock damage model of SH3-4-5 is actually quite sophisticated. The designers tweaked it towards instant gratification, no doubt for commercial purposes, but I see a lot of untapped potential there. I am already testing a new approach which looks promising.

[Bilge_Rat]

I ran some tests with IJN BBs to see if there was an issue.

except for the Yamato class, any other IJN BB can be sunk with a well placed spread of 2-3 torpedoes.

The Yamato is in a class of its own. I have sunk one with 6 torpedoes, sometimes it takes more.

Considering that there is only 2 Yamato class BB in the Pacific, I dont see the need for a change.