showing my ignorance

She-Wolf · 01-29-12, 08:17 AM

Hello O knowledgeable ones

I have only recently started seriously playing SH4, despite owning the game since it first came out, having been quite happy in the intervening years tootling about the North Sea in Rotbile ( rusty ol tub but I luv 'er) my humble German U-boat in SH3 - so I have not trod the decks of a US sub before.

When taking the sea breeze just out of Pearl Harbour, I noticed that there is a lower compartment below where you stand watch, which has a seat and a big wheel with a handle, all safely encased below the conning tower decking, but with 'portholes' to look through... what is that all about please? Oh, the sub is a P class.

Schroeder · 01-29-12, 08:49 AM

Well, I always thought that this would be the place of the helmsman when travelling in or out of a port. He has a better view from there than from inside the tower/command room. But I might be wrong there.

Nisgeis · 01-29-12, 09:12 AM

Yes, it's a helm. Originally they had glass windows to protect from weather as well. I seem to recall that the steering shaft goes through the conning tower pressure hull into some bevel gears attached to where the helm is in the conning tower.

She-Wolf · 01-29-12, 09:41 AM

Aha... Best-Beloved thought it would be for manoevering when in port as well, turns out he was right then. Makes sense.

Thank you, I have learned something

Sailor Steve · 01-29-12, 01:53 PM

Yep, it's for driving the boat. The covering is to keep him warm and dry.

Well, dry at least.

kstanb · 01-29-12, 11:03 PM

check

http://www.fleetsubmarine.com/wartime_mods.html

"Pre-war Gatos and other classes, like the U.S.S. Salmon (pictured), started out with large, well-sheltered (for a submarine) conning tower fairwaters, with an enclosed forebridge featuring glazed deadlights, and a surface steering position. From the viewpoint of the conning officer and helmsman, this had obvious advantages. They were out of the weather, and the helmsman could see where he was going when the boat was surfaced"

CCIP · 01-29-12, 11:41 PM

Yep, large and well-equipped towers. It's a different design philosophy - one that was popular with submarine designs before the war, but was quickly realized not to be effective, which is why you'll see that later in the war, these structures will literally get cut down pretty dramatically. The US fleet subs were not really designed around the same role and tactics as the U-boats, and the Germans were a little ahead of the time in realizing that for attacking at night and on the surface a low profile was the most important thing. Diving quickly was also a high priority. The US boats, on the other hand, started off on identifying search radius as a priority (and obviously the higher the tower, the further lookouts will be able to see), along with amenities for fast surface cruising.

So, as the war went on, they lost that little covered bridge, along with most of the bulk. Gained a very nice gun placement instead though

She-Wolf · 01-30-12, 06:08 PM

ah, that might explain why my US sub takes such a long time to submerge CCIP, compared to my little SH3 U-boat - what a rich store of info we have in the folk who post on this forum

CCIP · 01-30-12, 06:16 PM

Well, they're also just bigger - the bigger the boat, the more difficult it is to get under (at least if you keep in mind that all boats of the era were trimmed primarily for surface cruising)

The largest U-boats (IXDs) were 1800t submerged, while even the smallest fleet boats (P class) are 1960t submerged, and the Gatos are over 2400t. The Type VII is a puny 850t by comparison.

For their size, the fleet boats actually did really good. They improved their diving performance by a lot over the course of the war, and if you're playing TMO - look out for those crew skills that might help cut diving times. In many cases it really was the crews knowledge of the boats that allowed them to get under quickly. Don't expect anything much faster than 40 seconds though!

[edit] funny how Ducimius just said what I was thinking!

USS Drum · 01-30-12, 06:47 PM

The late war conning tower had a few advantages over the early war one: It could now handle the 40mm Bofors as well as carrying 2 AA guns it also had a lower silhouette.

Stealhead · 01-30-12, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCIP

Well, they're also just bigger - the bigger the boat, the more difficult it is to get under (at least if you keep in mind that all boats of the era were trimmed primarily for surface cruising)

The largest U-boats (IXDs) were 1800t submerged, while even the smallest fleet boats (P class) are 1960t submerged, and the Gatos are over 2400t. The Type VII is a puny 850t by comparison.

For their size, the fleet boats actually did really good. They improved their diving performance by a lot over the course of the war, and if you're playing TMO - look out for those crew skills that might help cut diving times. In many cases it really was the crews knowledge of the boats that allowed them to get under quickly. Don't expect anything much faster than 40 seconds though!

[edit] funny how Ducimius just said what I was thinking!

I think many people forget the effect that the subs size had on crew comfort.Most US classes where fairly comfortable and also had A/C and refrigeration for food stores that does not sound like much in a combat setting but these little things lower the amount and time it takes for the crew to get fatigued and a lees fatigued crew performs better.There is a fine line between a little comfort and too much but I think that the US fleet boats had it right.

Those are some pretty neat links Ducimus it must have been hard for the author to do the research considering all the variations with each general version.I see that they noted the fact that some Gato class subs revived Balao class sheers and then you have the Drum which was a Gato that needed a entire new conning tower and got a entire Balao tower.

Ducimus · 01-30-12, 06:12 PM

Don't forget prewar doctrine influencing the design of those towers. Prewar skippers were taught to be surbmerged most of the time, surfacing only at night to recharge batteries. Such was the extent of the "thou must be submerged" doctrine that they were originally instructed to do Sonar only approches. Which proved to be insanely impractical. Anywho, my point is, much of that conning tower structure, was probably originally designed for better hydrodynamic flow/less drag since they were intended to be submerged most of the time. (and yet, they had to have the surface characteristics to be able to keep up with the fleet on the surface, go figure that one out)

edit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by She-Wolf

ah, that might explain why my US sub takes such a long time to submerge CCIP, compared to my little SH3 U-boat - what a rich store of info we have in the folk who post on this forum

They did however improve their dive. Less conning tower, more limber holes, and more training. It was not unheard of for fleet boats to get under in or around 34 seconds, give or take. If your playing TMO, pick up some engine specialists, that will cut your dive time.

01-29-12, 08:17 AM	#1
She-Wolf Watchdog Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Hampshire UK Posts: 971 Downloads: 152 Uploads: 0	showing my ignorance Hello O knowledgeable ones I have only recently started seriously playing SH4, despite owning the game since it first came out, having been quite happy in the intervening years tootling about the North Sea in Rotbile ( rusty ol tub but I luv 'er) my humble German U-boat in SH3 - so I have not trod the decks of a US sub before. When taking the sea breeze just out of Pearl Harbour, I noticed that there is a lower compartment below where you stand watch, which has a seat and a big wheel with a handle, all safely encased below the conning tower decking, but with 'portholes' to look through... what is that all about please? Oh, the sub is a P class. __________________

01-29-12, 08:49 AM	#2
Schroeder Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Banana Republic of Germany Posts: 6,170 Downloads: 62 Uploads: 0	Well, I always thought that this would be the place of the helmsman when travelling in or out of a port. He has a better view from there than from inside the tower/command room. But I might be wrong there. __________________ Putting Germ back into Germany.

01-29-12, 09:12 AM	#3
Nisgeis Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 2,909 Downloads: 77 Uploads: 11	Yes, it's a helm. Originally they had glass windows to protect from weather as well. I seem to recall that the steering shaft goes through the conning tower pressure hull into some bevel gears attached to where the helm is in the conning tower. __________________ -------------------------------- This space left intentionally blank.

01-29-12, 09:41 AM	#4
She-Wolf Watchdog Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Hampshire UK Posts: 971 Downloads: 152 Uploads: 0	Aha... Best-Beloved thought it would be for manoevering when in port as well, turns out he was right then. Makes sense. Thank you, I have learned something __________________

01-29-12, 01:53 PM	#5
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	Yep, it's for driving the boat. The covering is to keep him warm and dry. Well, dry at least. __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

01-29-12, 11:03 PM	#6
kstanb Sparky Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 153 Downloads: 105 Uploads: 0	check http://www.fleetsubmarine.com/wartime_mods.html "Pre-war Gatos and other classes, like the U.S.S. Salmon (pictured), started out with large, well-sheltered (for a submarine) conning tower fairwaters, with an enclosed forebridge featuring glazed deadlights, and a surface steering position. From the viewpoint of the conning officer and helmsman, this had obvious advantages. They were out of the weather, and the helmsman could see where he was going when the boat was surfaced"

01-29-12, 11:41 PM	#7
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	Yep, large and well-equipped towers. It's a different design philosophy - one that was popular with submarine designs before the war, but was quickly realized not to be effective, which is why you'll see that later in the war, these structures will literally get cut down pretty dramatically. The US fleet subs were not really designed around the same role and tactics as the U-boats, and the Germans were a little ahead of the time in realizing that for attacking at night and on the surface a low profile was the most important thing. Diving quickly was also a high priority. The US boats, on the other hand, started off on identifying search radius as a priority (and obviously the higher the tower, the further lookouts will be able to see), along with amenities for fast surface cruising. So, as the war went on, they lost that little covered bridge, along with most of the bulk. Gained a very nice gun placement instead though __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)

01-30-12, 06:08 PM	#8
She-Wolf Watchdog Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Hampshire UK Posts: 971 Downloads: 152 Uploads: 0	ah, that might explain why my US sub takes such a long time to submerge CCIP, compared to my little SH3 U-boat - what a rich store of info we have in the folk who post on this forum __________________

01-30-12, 06:16 PM	#9
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	Well, they're also just bigger - the bigger the boat, the more difficult it is to get under (at least if you keep in mind that all boats of the era were trimmed primarily for surface cruising) The largest U-boats (IXDs) were 1800t submerged, while even the smallest fleet boats (P class) are 1960t submerged, and the Gatos are over 2400t. The Type VII is a puny 850t by comparison. For their size, the fleet boats actually did really good. They improved their diving performance by a lot over the course of the war, and if you're playing TMO - look out for those crew skills that might help cut diving times. In many cases it really was the crews knowledge of the boats that allowed them to get under quickly. Don't expect anything much faster than 40 seconds though! [edit] funny how Ducimius just said what I was thinking! __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)

01-30-12, 06:47 PM	#10
USS Drum Grey Wolf Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Washington State Posts: 977 Downloads: 126 Uploads: 0	The late war conning tower had a few advantages over the early war one: It could now handle the 40mm Bofors as well as carrying 2 AA guns it also had a lower silhouette.