Big change whether we like it or not

Rockstar · 11-20-11, 09:42 AM

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_.../MK17Dj01.html

... Democrats credit Obama's 2009 Cairo speech with inspiring Arabs to throw off their chains. Even more laughably, Republicans credit George W Bush's "liberation" of Iraq for installing democracy in the region and supposedly moving Tunisians, Egyptians, and others to follow suit.

To put it mildly, evidence to support such claims simply does not exist. One might as well attribute the Arab uprising to the 2010 Deepwater Horizon oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico. Those expecting Egyptians to erect statues of Obama or Bush in Cairo's Tahrir Square are likely to have a long wait.

Fourth, Beleaguered Europe's Quest for a Lifeline: To a considerable extent, the story of the 20th century - at least the commonly-told Western version of that story - is one of Europe screwing up and America coming to the rescue. The really big screw-ups were, of course, the two world wars. In 1917 and again after December 1941, the United States sent large armies to deal with those who had disturbed the peace. After the first war, the Americans left. After the second, they stayed, not only providing soldiers to safeguard Western Europe, but also rejuvenating the shattered economies of the European democracies.

Even with the passing of a half-century, the Marshall Plan stands out as a singular example of enlightened statecraft - and also as a testimonial to America's unsurpassed economic capacity following World War II. Saving continents in dire distress was a job that only the United States could accomplish.

That was then. Today, Europe has once again screwed up, although fortunately this time there is no need for foreign armies to sort out the mess. The crisis of the moment is an economic one, due entirely to European recklessness and irresponsibility (not qualitatively different from the behavior underlying the American economic crisis).

Will Uncle Sam once again ride to the rescue? Not a chance. Beset with the problems that come with old age, Uncle Sam can't even mount up. To whom, then, can Europe turn for assistance? Recent headlines tell the story:

"Cash-Strapped Europe Looks to China For Help"
"Europe Begs China for Bailout"
"EU takes begging bowl to Beijing"
"Is China the Bailout Saviour in the European Debt Crisis?"

The crucial issue here isn't whether Beijing will actually pull Europe's bacon out of the fire. Rather it's the shifting expectations underlying the moment. After all, hasn't the role of European savior already been assigned? Isn't it supposed to be Washington's in perpetuity? Apparently not ..."

Torplexed · 11-20-11, 10:21 AM

According to AEP's latest, the Japanese and other Asian central banks are dumping German bonds. Traders say Asians are taking profits on bonds and pulling out, with signs that even China's central bank is shaving holdings:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/f...EMU-chaos.html

If that's the case, it's over. According to the article, Swedish debt (non-euro) is now yielding under German debt for the first time in modern history.

Again, if true, this means the Asians have decided that European leaders can't solve the crisis, and it will bring down Germany when it blows up, meaning German debt is no longer safe. I sure can't see Beijing riding to the rescue. Uncle Sam might try, be he'd be slow getting there in his debt riddled wheelchair.

Sailor Steve · 11-20-11, 10:26 AM

Rockstar, a request: When you do a large copy-and-paste (or any at all) please use the quote function. The way you have it now makes it look like they are your own words.

Platapus · 11-20-11, 10:31 AM

Political parties taking credit for good things that they did not cause and blaming the other political party for bad things the other party did not cause is not exactly breaking news in the US.

It is kinda what we do here.

Rockstar · 11-20-11, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Rockstar, a request: When you do a large copy-and-paste (or any at all) please use the quote function. The way you have it now makes it look like they are your own words.

Sorry I placed quotation marks but somehow only the one on the end remains. Don't know why the first one went missing.

kraznyi_oktjabr · 11-20-11, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockstar

Sorry I placed quotation marks but somehow only the one on the end remains. Don't know why the first one went missing.

I think Steve means quote tags [QU0TE] and [/QU0TE] (with "0" replaced with "O" of course).

Sailor Steve · 11-20-11, 03:49 PM

Precisely. Quote tags leave no question as to the origin of the article.

Skybird · 11-20-11, 10:46 AM

On the Arab uporsies, a major cause were the simple existence of the internet, and access to foreign media and the option to coordinate the uprise. Obama's Cairo speech, Bush's agenda and EU's appeals had little or nothing to dow ith it.

On Europe, the hallucinations here carry on. It should be obvious for even the blindest fool now that the Euro was a terrible mistake and counts as one of the two big disasters in the post-war history of Europe. Spiegel reports however that Merkel wants a German referendum to change the German constitution that way that it will allow and even demand more sovereign powers - amongst them all fiscal and economic powers - of the German government shifted from Berlin to Brussel. Germans seem to be record-holder in self-destruction, it seems - we do it once again with that. France smiles and sees the possibility to get a deciding word to decision-making in German economy and fiannce issues. That Britain complains that there is a Fourth reich in the making wshil repeating its demand to keep all national economies together in one bundle and to evenm expand the EU and allow Turkey in, just shows how very much disconnect from Europe they are.

If we lern one thing from the current events, then that the intrerfsts of the states and the likes and prefernces of the people in Europe are extremnely diverse and different - too diverse and too different as if the idea that there could and should be one singular state with a centralistic, almost totalitarian government holds any realism or pleasurable quality.

Yesterday, a report was püublished saying that Barosso and the debt-.mnakers in the south now demand "return services" (Gegenleistungen) for the fatc that German bonds currently can be sold at record low interest rates. "Return services" implies that the southern nations and Barosso think they did something for Germany for which now they can demand these return services. But what did they do for Germany? Thes elow interest rates ncurrently are just the logical reward by the market that currently thinks the German economy is set up better than the others, and that nGermany can handle its debts. If the interest for other nations is higher, than this is the market'S assessment that the risk nvolved whehn delaing with them is higher, and for that they get the market'S punishment. In what way is the poor performace and forgery in certain nations a benefit for Germany for which these nations can claim "return services"...? Germany guarantees several hundreds of billions, and if looking behind the officiaol numbers and calculating the im0lications of the future that polticians so very much hate to talk about to the public, then we even guarantee for over 2 trillions of foeign debts and EU debts. We have skyrocketted our own debts just to bailit others and guaranteeing these things. They cost us hundreds of biullions and trillions, in the end.

And they have the nerve to tell us we owe them "return services" for that...?

Bloody a****es.

TLAM Strike · 11-20-11, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockstar

Even more laughably, Republicans credit George W Bush's "liberation" of Iraq for installing democracy in the region and supposedly moving Tunisians, Egyptians, and others to follow suit.

Even more laughably some believe that the revolutions in Egypt, Tunisia, and others installed democracy!

Ducimus · 11-21-11, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockstar

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_.../MK17Dj01.html

Interesting article in full. A harsh and unvarnished examination of the current day situation that is sure to draw out the local ideologues like white on rice if they bother to read the whole thing.

soopaman2 · 11-21-11, 02:03 PM

I for one welcome our new Chinese warlords.

I am one to look at the end game, and it ends with China Owning most the world economically.

Ducimus · 11-21-11, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soopaman2

I for one welcome our new Chinese warlords.
.

Heh, I don't. I'd rather we go back to the way we used to do things that made us great... you know... before we started selling ourselves out and CEO's outsourcing US jobs so places like walmart could sell chinese made crap on the cheap. But those days, are long gone, and they ain't ever coming back.

August · 11-21-11, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Heh, I don't. I'd rather we go back to the way we used to do things that made us great... you know... before we started selling ourselves out and CEO's outsourcing US jobs so places like walmart could sell chinese made crap on the cheap. But those days, are long gone, and they ain't ever coming back.

I know it's easier to blame ones troubles on a scapegoat but it's neither accurate or productive.

CEO's don't outsource jobs. CEO's do nothing but what their Board of Directors and company shareholders want them to do. If you want to blame someone for outsourced jobs then blame everyone who demands a return on their stock investments.

We really need to get past this "Eat the Rich" class warfare. We could confiscate the entire personal assets of everyone in the top 1% and it wouldn't even dent the national debt.

That means if we go down that road the 1% is very quickly going to become the top 90%.

See the French revolution. How long did it take for them to go from beheading top level nobility to beheading anyone with something worth stealing?

Ducimus · 11-21-11, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by August

I know it's easier to blame ones troubles on a scapegoat but it's neither accurate or productive.

CEO's don't outsource jobs. CEO's do nothing but what their Board of Directors and company shareholders want them to do. If you want to blame someone for outsourced jobs then blame everyone who demands a return on their stock investments.

We really need to get past this "Eat the Rich" class warfare. We could confiscate the entire personal assets of everyone in the top 1% and it wouldn't even dent the national debt.

That means if we go down that road the 1% is very quickly going to become the top 90%.

See the French revolution. How long did it take for them to go from beheading top level nobility to beheading anyone with something worth stealing?

Sorry bud, I'm not buying it. I've seen my own CEO do so much BS, and be so blatant about it, i, more then once, found myself sitting there thinking, "WHo the hell does he think he's fooling!". Or, "Really, REALLY? ".

First, lets start with the stoping of ANY 401K matching. None, at all. Zero, zlitch nada. The reason? "Because nobody else in the industry is doing that anymore". REALLY? Scuse me, but i know of several people that still have 401K matching.

Then lets talk about lack of bonuses. I don't get those anymore. Period. Am I one of those self entitled jerkweeds? No. I haven't gotten a pay raise in 5 freaking years, but I'm fine with that. I understand I've topped out. There is no upward mobility for me. So no, i dont expect any raises anymore.

Oh .. and lets not forget about how this guys personal travel expenses were, the last i heard, costing the company more then it could afford. Gee, I wonder where our bonuses went.... Oh... thats right, Mr High and mighty wanted to fly around in a jet.

Then, lets not forget how he shat on long time employees. Moving the entire HR department to some cubbyhole in the back of the company because he wanted their office. To add one more point to this, nevermind the employee of 8 years getting railroaded out of the company, just so he could bring in his sister in law on the payroll.

Oh and the icing on the cake. MOVING THE ENTIRE FREAKING COMPANY TO BE CLOSER TO HIS HOUSE. That move, cost over a million dollars, and DOUBLED THE COMMUTE of half the rank and file employees. Most of whom have been with the company longer then that CEO has, or ever will be. That commute for many i know is now to the tune of 80 miles round trip now. Personally, i think this move was financed by layoffs, which just happened recently.

So, no, im not buying it. Not for one, fraction of a second.

11-20-11, 09:42 AM	#1
Rockstar In the Brig Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Zendia Bar & Grill Posts: 12,614 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Big change whether we like it or not http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_.../MK17Dj01.html ... Democrats credit Obama's 2009 Cairo speech with inspiring Arabs to throw off their chains. Even more laughably, Republicans credit George W Bush's "liberation" of Iraq for installing democracy in the region and supposedly moving Tunisians, Egyptians, and others to follow suit. To put it mildly, evidence to support such claims simply does not exist. One might as well attribute the Arab uprising to the 2010 Deepwater Horizon oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico. Those expecting Egyptians to erect statues of Obama or Bush in Cairo's Tahrir Square are likely to have a long wait. Fourth, Beleaguered Europe's Quest for a Lifeline: To a considerable extent, the story of the 20th century - at least the commonly-told Western version of that story - is one of Europe screwing up and America coming to the rescue. The really big screw-ups were, of course, the two world wars. In 1917 and again after December 1941, the United States sent large armies to deal with those who had disturbed the peace. After the first war, the Americans left. After the second, they stayed, not only providing soldiers to safeguard Western Europe, but also rejuvenating the shattered economies of the European democracies. Even with the passing of a half-century, the Marshall Plan stands out as a singular example of enlightened statecraft - and also as a testimonial to America's unsurpassed economic capacity following World War II. Saving continents in dire distress was a job that only the United States could accomplish. That was then. Today, Europe has once again screwed up, although fortunately this time there is no need for foreign armies to sort out the mess. The crisis of the moment is an economic one, due entirely to European recklessness and irresponsibility (not qualitatively different from the behavior underlying the American economic crisis). Will Uncle Sam once again ride to the rescue? Not a chance. Beset with the problems that come with old age, Uncle Sam can't even mount up. To whom, then, can Europe turn for assistance? Recent headlines tell the story: "Cash-Strapped Europe Looks to China For Help" "Europe Begs China for Bailout" "EU takes begging bowl to Beijing" "Is China the Bailout Saviour in the European Debt Crisis?" The crucial issue here isn't whether Beijing will actually pull Europe's bacon out of the fire. Rather it's the shifting expectations underlying the moment. After all, hasn't the role of European savior already been assigned? Isn't it supposed to be Washington's in perpetuity? Apparently not ..."

11-20-11, 10:21 AM	#2
Torplexed Let's Sink Sumptin' ! Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 5,823 Downloads: 43 Uploads: 0	According to AEP's latest, the Japanese and other Asian central banks are dumping German bonds. Traders say Asians are taking profits on bonds and pulling out, with signs that even China's central bank is shaving holdings: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/f...EMU-chaos.html If that's the case, it's over. According to the article, Swedish debt (non-euro) is now yielding under German debt for the first time in modern history. Again, if true, this means the Asians have decided that European leaders can't solve the crisis, and it will bring down Germany when it blows up, meaning German debt is no longer safe. I sure can't see Beijing riding to the rescue. Uncle Sam might try, be he'd be slow getting there in his debt riddled wheelchair. __________________ --Mobilis in Mobili--

11-20-11, 10:26 AM	#3
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	Rockstar, a request: When you do a large copy-and-paste (or any at all) please use the quote function. The way you have it now makes it look like they are your own words. __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo Last edited by Sailor Steve; 11-20-11 at 10:36 AM.

11-20-11, 10:31 AM	#4
Platapus Fleet Admiral Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 19,382 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 0	Political parties taking credit for good things that they did not cause and blaming the other political party for bad things the other party did not cause is not exactly breaking news in the US. It is kinda what we do here. __________________ abusus non tollit usum - A right should NOT be withheld from people on the basis that some tend to abuse that right.

11-20-11, 03:49 PM	#7
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	Precisely. Quote tags leave no question as to the origin of the article. __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

11-20-11, 10:46 AM	#8
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,679 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	On the Arab uporsies, a major cause were the simple existence of the internet, and access to foreign media and the option to coordinate the uprise. Obama's Cairo speech, Bush's agenda and EU's appeals had little or nothing to dow ith it. On Europe, the hallucinations here carry on. It should be obvious for even the blindest fool now that the Euro was a terrible mistake and counts as one of the two big disasters in the post-war history of Europe. Spiegel reports however that Merkel wants a German referendum to change the German constitution that way that it will allow and even demand more sovereign powers - amongst them all fiscal and economic powers - of the German government shifted from Berlin to Brussel. Germans seem to be record-holder in self-destruction, it seems - we do it once again with that. France smiles and sees the possibility to get a deciding word to decision-making in German economy and fiannce issues. That Britain complains that there is a Fourth reich in the making wshil repeating its demand to keep all national economies together in one bundle and to evenm expand the EU and allow Turkey in, just shows how very much disconnect from Europe they are. If we lern one thing from the current events, then that the intrerfsts of the states and the likes and prefernces of the people in Europe are extremnely diverse and different - too diverse and too different as if the idea that there could and should be one singular state with a centralistic, almost totalitarian government holds any realism or pleasurable quality. Yesterday, a report was püublished saying that Barosso and the debt-.mnakers in the south now demand "return services" (Gegenleistungen) for the fatc that German bonds currently can be sold at record low interest rates. "Return services" implies that the southern nations and Barosso think they did something for Germany for which now they can demand these return services. But what did they do for Germany? Thes elow interest rates ncurrently are just the logical reward by the market that currently thinks the German economy is set up better than the others, and that nGermany can handle its debts. If the interest for other nations is higher, than this is the market'S assessment that the risk nvolved whehn delaing with them is higher, and for that they get the market'S punishment. In what way is the poor performace and forgery in certain nations a benefit for Germany for which these nations can claim "return services"...? Germany guarantees several hundreds of billions, and if looking behind the officiaol numbers and calculating the im0lications of the future that polticians so very much hate to talk about to the public, then we even guarantee for over 2 trillions of foeign debts and EU debts. We have skyrocketted our own debts just to bailit others and guaranteeing these things. They cost us hundreds of biullions and trillions, in the end. And they have the nerve to tell us we owe them "return services" for that...? Bloody a**es. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.**

11-21-11, 02:03 PM	#11
soopaman2 Der Alte Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: New Jersey, USA Posts: 3,316 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 0	I for one welcome our new Chinese warlords. I am one to look at the end game, and it ends with China Owning most the world economically. __________________ If Hitler invaded Hell I would make at least a favourable reference to the devil in the House of Commons. -Winston Churchill- The most fascinating man in the world.