[TEC] TRUE SH5 Ships' Dimensions

toniloCoyote · 01-30-11, 01:21 PM

True SH5 Ships’ Dimensions
====================

For downloading the packages, go to post #3, but if you want to know what you are downloading, you better read this one firstly (I hope you can understand my insufficient English).

SOME HISTORY:

This story began when Trevally opened a thread in the Subsim forum wondering why he could not properly use the RAOBF from TheDarkWraith’s UIs.

Soon after, among several others, Makman and I joined the discussion. While Makman and Trevally were resolving the issues and mysteries of optics, I knew that all measures included in the SH5 documentation are wrong (the dimensions of the vessels, the depth at which torpedoes travel, and I don’t know how many more measures). So I left them with their FOVs, their zooms, lenses and other demonic inventions, and I decided to clear up for ever, and as accurately as possible, the uncertainty about the dimensions of the SH5’s virtual world.

In very short, the result of this great effort made by us three, not forgetting the original work of TheDarkWraith has been:

A reliable RAOBF and optics for the Real Navigation in SH5.
A complete tutorial on using the RAOBF.
The final clarification of which are the exact measures for the SH5’s components.

The last statement may seem presumptuous, but you will be those who judge and test it. For this purpose and for serving to all SH5 modders, I’m publishing here my results along with those tools I have developed and used in the process.

In short, I consider this work as part of a larger one that has been made among the above mentioned people. It was a pleasure to share this task with them, and I thank them the help and support they have given me. Here are the links to the threads that compose it, in chronological order:

Trevally: “RAOBF”
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=178545

Makman: “Manos Scopes”
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=179068

Trevally: “Trevally TutorialsI”
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=177725

and, of course, TheDarkWraith’s UIs and RAOBF at :
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=166093

PROCEDURES FOLLOWED IN THE MEASUREMENTS:

It is obvious that, for the measurements were accurate, I should not use procedures other than those used by SH5 developers when they built this virtual world. Moreover, it was preferable to use the same design tools that they used. Therefore, it was necessary to import into 3DS Max each object to be measured, without altering it in any way during the import process. Also had to take into account that certain parameters of the ship are controlled by variables in its .sim file, as in the case of the Draught field. So it was necessary to study and understand the relationship between this file and the geometry of the 3D models (. GR2 file). There are also parts of the model that have volume, but they are only invisible “controllers”, and should not be included within the dimensions of the ship.

Moreover, the implicit monotony of this work should not invalidate the results, there could not be errors caused by the hand or the eyes of whoever made these measurements. It was therefore required to firstly design the procedure by hand, then test their effectiveness, automate it, execute it and, finally, verify the results.

Thus, the steps followed were these:

To study, analyze and understand the Granny graphical format (GR2). To develop or adapt the code of others, for importing such files into 3DS Max, in a way that its original geometry could not be affected.
Develop a reliable measurement procedure (at centimeter) and develop some scripts which did the work and exported the results to a worksheet, with no intervention by the human hand throughout the entire process.
Provide an understandable and useful format for presenting the data within the worksheet.
Design a reliable method to verify the accuracy of the data once we are inside SH5 simulator.
Make this method available to others, so that anyone can prove or disprove the reliability of the measurements.
Present these data and tools in a manipulable way for the modders who want to base on it their current or future work.

I believe to have achieved all these objectives and with this release I'll take the job as finished.. I hope other people will use it and improve it in the future.

Note:
After studying many options and analyze several dlls, third-party APIs and SDKs, the code I’ve used for importing the .GR2 files into 3DS Max 2010 is an adaptation made by me of the GR2 Decode’s Grnreader tool. For those interested in this topic, it seems that Privateer is about to launch a more complete solution. For more information visit his thread at: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=173092

DELIVERY STRUCTURE

I have divided the delivery in 4 packages (. zip files):

SH5_ShipsDimensions_from_3D

Contains, in xls (Excel worksheet) and RTF formats, the results of the measurements for all the ships in SH5. The data included for each vessel are:
Ship Folder, 3D Mesh Name, Length, Width, Height, Draft from 3D Origin, Draft from .sim file, Actual Draft, Altitude of 3D Origin point, Mast from 3D Origin, Actual Mast Height, Funnels Height from 3D Origin, Actual Funnels Height, Hull Height from 3D Origin, Actual Hull Height, plus some useful comments about the ship.

Real_Dimensions_Cfgs

This is a mod compatible with JSGME which contains all original ships’ .cfg files already updated with the measures for Length, Width, Draft and Mast Height, from the data in the Excel file.

Measuring_Sources_and_Tools

This contains all the code and tools I’ve developed for this job. It includes the C++ sources of the exporter, the measuring scripts for 3DS Max, and a Python script that automates the process of updating the SH5 cfg files from the Excel file. Some modders can find it useful for his own purposes. I’ve also included some useful and related links.

Floating_Ruler

Anyone can verify the accuracy of the measurements by repeating the method I have used, with the same tools, but now is time for checking them (though not so accurately) inside the SH5 scene.
This tool is just a graduated grid that can be inserted into any SH5 mission for measuring the dimensions of any part of a ship. It may also be useful for measuring behaviors of other components of SH5. For example, at what depth actually travels the torpedoes I’m firing? It can also be used for measuring speeds or other parameters. I think it can be very useful for Recognition Manual modders who want to measure and use their own reference points rather than the height of the masts or funnels.

toniloCoyote

toniloCoyote · 01-30-11, 01:22 PM

Do your own measurments with the Floating Ruler

___

___

___
______Mast = 35m________________________________This boy's size = 1.75m______________________

__

__

__
______ Measure your sub ____________________ No enough room in station for the couch ________________

In SH5, all torpedoes are traveling at a depth of nearly one meter deeper than as ordered. These ones were fired at 2, 4 and 6 meters, respectively.

toniloCoyote · 01-30-11, 01:23 PM

Download Links:

SH5_ShipsDimensions_from_3D
The results of the measurements for all ships, in xls and rtf format.

http://www.filefront.com/17871734/To...om_3D_v3-0.zip

Real_Dimensions_Cfgs
All original ships’ .cfg files already updated. Mod compatible with JSGME.

http://www.filefront.com/17875051/to..._3-01_Cfgs.zip

Measuring_Sources_and_Tools
Sources and tools developed and used in the measuring work.

http://www.filefront.com/17871739/To...Tools_v3-0.rar

Floating_Ruler
Mod compatible with JSGME for doing your own measurements.

http://www.filefront.com/17871741/to...er_Beta_02.zip

.

Trevally. · 01-30-11, 01:32 PM

Fantastic job ToniloCoyote

This will help a lot of people

TheDarkWraith · 01-30-11, 01:34 PM

Excellent work

stoianm · 01-30-11, 01:39 PM

i hope that TDW will use that in his MO. Then we will have less ''torpedo miss,, because of wrong calculations!

God job toniloCoyote

. I am big fun of MO and RAOFB and this news made my day!

Best regards!

Zedi · 01-31-11, 04:12 AM

This topic is about how to measure properly the fleet &objects in SH5 and not about how wrong the scaling is done compared to the real ships, right? Because ship scaling is another fine example of how bad this game was done.

Lets take 2 example of most common merchants, Cimmarion and Liberty cargo. SH5 vs reality:

=========Cimmarion tanker=============
Stock dimensions - ClassName=T3Cimmaron
MaxSpeed=12
Length=139.6
Width=18.5
Draft=7.3
Displacement=7600

Tonilo Real_Dimensions_Cfgs - ClassName=T3Cimmaron
MaxSpeed=12
Length=190.57
Width=41.83
Draft=10.50
Displacement=7600

Real life dimensions - USS Cimarron (AO-22)
Speed: 18 knots (21 mph; 33 km/h)
Length: 169 m (553 ft)
Beam: 23 m (75 ft)
Draft: 9.86 m (32 ft 4 in)
Displacement: 7,470 long tons (7,590 t) light | 24,830 long tons (25,228 t) full load

=========Liberty cargo=============
Stock dimensions - ClassName=LL
MaxSpeed=13
Length=147
Width=18.1
Draft=5.8
Displacement=7170

Tonilo Real_Dimensions_Cfgs - ClassName=LL
MaxSpeed=13
Length=140.91
Width=21.35
Draft=8.20
Displacement=7170

Real life dimensions - Liberty ship
Speed: 11 to 11.5 knots (20 to 21 km/h)
Length: 135 m (441 ft 6 in)
Beam: 17.3 m (56 ft 10.75 in)
Draft: 8.5 m (27 ft 9.25 in)
Displacement: 14,245 long tons (14,474 t)

And these are only the merchants. The capital ships are another story.. just look at the crew on deck and considering they are around 1.8m, see how many times they will fit into the ship visible height. Then look at pictures made in ports and compare the ship body to the people near them. No rocket science needed to see that the ship scaling in SH5 is a joke.

And I dont think this part will be ever fixed, at least not my modders.

stoianm · 01-31-11, 04:23 AM

You are right Magnum! But give me an example of something made in the proper maner form start to end in the vanilla version of sh5. It is more like a toys for kids then a ,,subsim''.

I totally agree with you - but is a very good thing to know measure properly the fleet &objects in SH5 - so that is all it counts for me now (i totally forgot who Ubisoft is)!

Best regards!

Boomfunkmc · 01-31-11, 08:53 AM

I really think alot of you people need a reality check soon..

For gods sake, it's a computer game.. (You can argue all you want about this being a Simulation, and not a game, and you'll only be fooling yourselves)

See this is why I gave up on flight-simming to.. I was a hardcore flightsimmer for a number of years, but you get so caught up with complaining on how the game is made and finding flaws with everything you see, and you will only end up striving to make it better with mods upon mods, upon mods...

Suddently you find yourselves not remembering why you play this game anymore, and you discover that where you spend most of your time in the game, is in the file index window C/Ubisoft/Silent Hunter 5, where the game is installed.

Cool down all you modders, and enjoy the game in all it's glory.. Nothing more, nothing less..

So now, go ahead and let the flaming begin..

Nufsed · 01-31-11, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boomfunkmc

I really think alot of you people need a reality check soon..

For gods sake, it's a computer game.. (You can argue all you want about this being a Simulation, and not a game, and you'll only be fooling yourselves)

See this is why I gave up on flight-simming to.. I was a hardcore flightsimmer for a number of years, but you get so caught up with complaining on how the game is made and finding flaws with everything you see, and you will only end up striving to make it better with mods upon mods, upon mods...

Suddently you find yourselves not remembering why you play this game anymore, and you discover that where you spend most of your time in the game, is in the file index window C/Ubisoft/Silent Hunter 5, where the game is installed.

Cool down all you modders, and enjoy the game in all it's glory.. Nothing more, nothing less..

So now, go ahead and let the flaming begin..

Goodbye

Boomfunkmc · 01-31-11, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nufsed

Goodbye

Wow.. I guess you need the reality check the most?

Sailor Steve · 01-31-11, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boomfunkmc

I really think alot of you people need a reality check soon..

Why, exactly? Some people enjoy fiddling with games as much or more than they enjoy playing them.

Quote:

For gods sake, it's a computer game.. (You can argue all you want about this being a Simulation, and not a game, and you'll only be fooling yourselves)

True, but it's a game based on history. Is it wrong to want the basic information to be right?

Quote:

See this is why I gave up on flight-simming to.. I was a hardcore flightsimmer for a number of years, but you get so caught up with complaining on how the game is made and finding flaws with everything you see, and you will only end up striving to make it better with mods upon mods, upon mods...

True, but this is one thread by a guy who sees one error and wants to fix it. Is that wrong? If so, explain why. If not, why be so harsh?

Quote:

Suddently you find yourselves not remembering why you play this game anymore, and you discover that where you spend most of your time in the game, is in the file index window C/Ubisoft/Silent Hunter 5, where the game is installed.

Some people are happier playing with a game than actually playing it. Does that really deserve your derision?

Quote:

Cool down all you modders, and enjoy the game in all it's glory.. Nothing more, nothing less..

So you're saying they should give up what they enjoy and do what you tell them to?

Quote:

So now, go ahead and let the flaming begin..

The tone of your post is flaming in itself. Why so angry?

Zedi · 01-31-11, 12:37 PM

Well, sim or not.. wonder how hard is to scale a ship based on reality. Those guys from 2K who made Mafia2 modeled a whole frakin town, including the port and ships, all based on real scales.. even a god damn fly and the ants are scaled right. Now how hard could be to model right only few ships ships in a franchise with nr 5 in his title?

01-30-11, 01:21 PM	#1
toniloCoyote Bosun Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 66 Downloads: 12 Uploads: 0	[TEC] TRUE SH5 Ships' Dimensions True SH5 Ships’ Dimensions ==================== For downloading the packages, go to post #3, but if you want to know what you are downloading, you better read this one firstly (I hope you can understand my insufficient English). SOME HISTORY: This story began when Trevally opened a thread in the Subsim forum wondering why he could not properly use the RAOBF from TheDarkWraith’s UIs. Soon after, among several others, Makman and I joined the discussion. While Makman and Trevally were resolving the issues and mysteries of optics, I knew that all measures included in the SH5 documentation are wrong (the dimensions of the vessels, the depth at which torpedoes travel, and I don’t know how many more measures). So I left them with their FOVs, their zooms, lenses and other demonic inventions, and I decided to clear up for ever, and as accurately as possible, the uncertainty about the dimensions of the SH5’s virtual world. In very short, the result of this great effort made by us three, not forgetting the original work of TheDarkWraith has been: A reliable RAOBF and optics for the Real Navigation in SH5. A complete tutorial on using the RAOBF. The final clarification of which are the exact measures for the SH5’s components. The last statement may seem presumptuous, but you will be those who judge and test it. For this purpose and for serving to all SH5 modders, I’m publishing here my results along with those tools I have developed and used in the process. In short, I consider this work as part of a larger one that has been made among the above mentioned people. It was a pleasure to share this task with them, and I thank them the help and support they have given me. Here are the links to the threads that compose it, in chronological order: Trevally: “RAOBF” http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=178545 Makman: “Manos Scopes” http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=179068 Trevally: “Trevally TutorialsI” http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=177725 and, of course, TheDarkWraith’s UIs and RAOBF at : http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=166093 PROCEDURES FOLLOWED IN THE MEASUREMENTS: It is obvious that, for the measurements were accurate, I should not use procedures other than those used by SH5 developers when they built this virtual world. Moreover, it was preferable to use the same design tools that they used. Therefore, it was necessary to import into 3DS Max each object to be measured, without altering it in any way during the import process. Also had to take into account that certain parameters of the ship are controlled by variables in its .sim file, as in the case of the Draught field. So it was necessary to study and understand the relationship between this file and the geometry of the 3D models (. GR2 file). There are also parts of the model that have volume, but they are only invisible “controllers”, and should not be included within the dimensions of the ship. Moreover, the implicit monotony of this work should not invalidate the results, there could not be errors caused by the hand or the eyes of whoever made these measurements. It was therefore required to firstly design the procedure by hand, then test their effectiveness, automate it, execute it and, finally, verify the results. Thus, the steps followed were these: To study, analyze and understand the Granny graphical format (GR2). To develop or adapt the code of others, for importing such files into 3DS Max, in a way that its original geometry could not be affected. Develop a reliable measurement procedure (at centimeter) and develop some scripts which did the work and exported the results to a worksheet, with no intervention by the human hand throughout the entire process. Provide an understandable and useful format for presenting the data within the worksheet. Design a reliable method to verify the accuracy of the data once we are inside SH5 simulator. Make this method available to others, so that anyone can prove or disprove the reliability of the measurements. Present these data and tools in a manipulable way for the modders who want to base on it their current or future work. I believe to have achieved all these objectives and with this release I'll take the job as finished.. I hope other people will use it and improve it in the future. Note: After studying many options and analyze several dlls, third-party APIs and SDKs, the code I’ve used for importing the .GR2 files into 3DS Max 2010 is an adaptation made by me of the GR2 Decode’s Grnreader tool. For those interested in this topic, it seems that Privateer is about to launch a more complete solution. For more information visit his thread at: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=173092 DELIVERY STRUCTURE I have divided the delivery in 4 packages (. zip files): SH5_ShipsDimensions_from_3D Contains, in xls (Excel worksheet) and RTF formats, the results of the measurements for all the ships in SH5. The data included for each vessel are: Ship Folder, 3D Mesh Name, Length, Width, Height, Draft from 3D Origin, Draft from .sim file, Actual Draft, Altitude of 3D Origin point, Mast from 3D Origin, Actual Mast Height, Funnels Height from 3D Origin, Actual Funnels Height, Hull Height from 3D Origin, Actual Hull Height, plus some useful comments about the ship. Real_Dimensions_Cfgs This is a mod compatible with JSGME which contains all original ships’ .cfg files already updated with the measures for Length, Width, Draft and Mast Height, from the data in the Excel file. Measuring_Sources_and_Tools This contains all the code and tools I’ve developed for this job. It includes the C++ sources of the exporter, the measuring scripts for 3DS Max, and a Python script that automates the process of updating the SH5 cfg files from the Excel file. Some modders can find it useful for his own purposes. I’ve also included some useful and related links. Floating_Ruler Anyone can verify the accuracy of the measurements by repeating the method I have used, with the same tools, but now is time for checking them (though not so accurately) inside the SH5 scene. This tool is just a graduated grid that can be inserted into any SH5 mission for measuring the dimensions of any part of a ship. It may also be useful for measuring behaviors of other components of SH5. For example, at what depth actually travels the torpedoes I’m firing? It can also be used for measuring speeds or other parameters. I think it can be very useful for Recognition Manual modders who want to measure and use their own reference points rather than the height of the masts or funnels. toniloCoyote

01-30-11, 01:22 PM	#2
toniloCoyote Bosun Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 66 Downloads: 12 Uploads: 0	Using the Floating Ruler Do your own measurments with the Floating Ruler ______ ___ ______Mast = 35m________________________________This boy's size = 1.75m______________________ ____ __ ______ Measure your sub ____________________ No enough room in station for the couch ________________ In SH5, all torpedoes are traveling at a depth of nearly one meter deeper than as ordered. These ones were fired at 2, 4 and 6 meters, respectively. Last edited by toniloCoyote; 01-30-11 at 01:53 PM.

01-30-11, 01:32 PM	#4
Trevally. Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: AN1536 (Orkney) Posts: 5,451 Downloads: 166 Uploads: 28	Fantastic job ToniloCoyote This will help a lot of people __________________ [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Trevally Mods for SH5

01-30-11, 01:39 PM	#6
stoianm Ocean Warrior Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Montreal, Canada Posts: 2,776 Downloads: 833 Uploads: 11	i hope that TDW will use that in his MO. Then we will have less ''torpedo miss,, because of wrong calculations! God job toniloCoyote. I am big fun of MO and RAOFB and this news made my day! Best regards!

01-30-11, 01:23 PM	#3
toniloCoyote Bosun Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 66 Downloads: 12 Uploads: 0	DOWNLOADS Download Links: SH5_ShipsDimensions_from_3D The results of the measurements for all ships, in xls and rtf format. http://www.filefront.com/17871734/To...om_3D_v3-0.zip Real_Dimensions_Cfgs All original ships’ .cfg files already updated. Mod compatible with JSGME. http://www.filefront.com/17875051/to..._3-01_Cfgs.zip Measuring_Sources_and_Tools Sources and tools developed and used in the measuring work. http://www.filefront.com/17871739/To...Tools_v3-0.rar Floating_Ruler Mod compatible with JSGME for doing your own measurements. http://www.filefront.com/17871741/to...er_Beta_02.zip . Last edited by toniloCoyote; 01-31-11 at 08:13 AM.

01-30-11, 01:34 PM	#5
TheDarkWraith Black Magic Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 11,962 Downloads: 147 Uploads: 5	Excellent work

01-31-11, 04:12 AM	#7
Zedi Sea Lord Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 1,845 Downloads: 184 Uploads: 2	This topic is about how to measure properly the fleet &objects in SH5 and not about how wrong the scaling is done compared to the real ships, right? Because ship scaling is another fine example of how bad this game was done. Lets take 2 example of most common merchants, Cimmarion and Liberty cargo. SH5 vs reality: =========Cimmarion tanker============= Stock dimensions - ClassName=T3Cimmaron MaxSpeed=12 Length=139.6 Width=18.5 Draft=7.3 Displacement=7600 Tonilo Real_Dimensions_Cfgs - ClassName=T3Cimmaron MaxSpeed=12 Length=190.57 Width=41.83 Draft=10.50 Displacement=7600 Real life dimensions - USS Cimarron (AO-22) Speed: 18 knots (21 mph; 33 km/h) Length: 169 m (553 ft) Beam: 23 m (75 ft) Draft: 9.86 m (32 ft 4 in) Displacement: 7,470 long tons (7,590 t) light \| 24,830 long tons (25,228 t) full load =========Liberty cargo============= Stock dimensions - ClassName=LL MaxSpeed=13 Length=147 Width=18.1 Draft=5.8 Displacement=7170 Tonilo Real_Dimensions_Cfgs - ClassName=LL MaxSpeed=13 Length=140.91 Width=21.35 Draft=8.20 Displacement=7170 Real life dimensions - Liberty ship Speed: 11 to 11.5 knots (20 to 21 km/h) Length: 135 m (441 ft 6 in) Beam: 17.3 m (56 ft 10.75 in) Draft: 8.5 m (27 ft 9.25 in) Displacement: 14,245 long tons (14,474 t) And these are only the merchants. The capital ships are another story.. just look at the crew on deck and considering they are around 1.8m, see how many times they will fit into the ship visible height. Then look at pictures made in ports and compare the ship body to the people near them. No rocket science needed to see that the ship scaling in SH5 is a joke. And I dont think this part will be ever fixed, at least not my modders.

01-31-11, 04:23 AM	#8
stoianm Ocean Warrior Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Montreal, Canada Posts: 2,776 Downloads: 833 Uploads: 11	You are right Magnum! But give me an example of something made in the proper maner form start to end in the vanilla version of sh5. It is more like a toys for kids then a ,,subsim''. I totally agree with you - but is a very good thing to know measure properly the fleet &objects in SH5 - so that is all it counts for me now (i totally forgot who Ubisoft is)! Best regards!

01-31-11, 08:53 AM	#9
Boomfunkmc Mate Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 52 Downloads: 195 Uploads: 0	I really think alot of you people need a reality check soon.. For gods sake, it's a computer game.. (You can argue all you want about this being a Simulation, and not a game, and you'll only be fooling yourselves) See this is why I gave up on flight-simming to.. I was a hardcore flightsimmer for a number of years, but you get so caught up with complaining on how the game is made and finding flaws with everything you see, and you will only end up striving to make it better with mods upon mods, upon mods... Suddently you find yourselves not remembering why you play this game anymore, and you discover that where you spend most of your time in the game, is in the file index window C/Ubisoft/Silent Hunter 5, where the game is installed. Cool down all you modders, and enjoy the game in all it's glory.. Nothing more, nothing less.. So now, go ahead and let the flaming begin..

01-31-11, 12:37 PM	#13
Zedi Sea Lord Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 1,845 Downloads: 184 Uploads: 2	Well, sim or not.. wonder how hard is to scale a ship based on reality. Those guys from 2K who made Mafia2 modeled a whole frakin town, including the port and ships, all based on real scales.. even a god damn fly and the ants are scaled right. Now how hard could be to model right only few ships ships in a franchise with nr 5 in his title?