Sense and nonsense of the German draft

[Skybird]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...702665,00.html

If one types the words "Bundeswehr" and "Langeweile" ("boredom") into the video platform YouTube, the scope of the great void becomes even clearer. The videos that appear depict German recruits doing battle with their biggest enemy: boredom.
In one video, a soldier wearing a camouflage uniform and a gas mask dances to techno music, using a broom as his dancing partner. In another film, soldiers play the game of "bed tipping," which involves tipping one of their comrades off his mattress. There is the Bundeswehr Twist, in which recruits in camouflage, steel helmets and gas masks dance the day away, and then there is the film in which men sitting in their room use tape to remove body hair from each other's thighs.
In another video, soldiers strap steel helmets to their elbows and knees and hop around on all fours across the linoleum floor, performing a "turtle race." In another, men stuff themselves into military-issue sleeping bags, like fat caterpillars, and then roll across the barracks floor -- to the applause of their comrades.
One three-minute video shows a soldier sitting on a chair. He is so tired that he can hardly keep his eyes open. He is a comic and sad-looking figure, but also a wonderful allegory for the complete absurdity of compulsory military service. Naturally, there are also plenty of videos that show soldiers drinking and vomiting.

But our wonderful, sensible, close-to-reality politicians still insist on the system being a great melting pot for different mentalities of young men from various parts and states of Germany and how idealistic and great and wonderful it all is, this draft system.

[Betonov]

blitzkrieg on boredom

He went to his supervisor's office, where he filed a retroactive petition as a conscientious objector. He now performs community service for a nursing agency.

damn, I'd rather see the trenches than change old people diapers

[Schroeder]

I don't think the draft is the problem, it's the finances again.
If the armed forces have to recruit tons of people then they must be given the means to keep them busy.

BTW. I didn't read the entire article but it seems to me to be a worst case scenario in that logistics battalion. When I was with the mechanized infantry we sure as hell had something to do during basic training. After that I got transferred to a company's office and usually we had something to do there too. I don't know what the combat sections did all day but from time to time we could see them picking up their gear and heading out for the training ground. However you can only send people to the training grounds when you have the money to replace worn equipment, to buy (blank) ammo, keep your infantry fighting vehicles fuelled and operational and (if necessary) to transport food from the kitchen to the units location in the field. Without that there is nothing the Bundeswehr can do with it's recruits. The article definitely wants to paint an all dark picture of everything but, sorry, a lot there is also just whining.
There are four beds in one room omg oh noez!!!
When I was in the army we had six beds in one room. So?
Soldiers have to store there stuff in the attic omg oh noez!!!
Excuse me???? Every soldier gets exactly ONE locker for him and his stuff (and it is big enough btw.). If you need more room you definitely brought along too much personal stuff! This isn't a problem of the Bundeswehr, it's a problem of the soldier!
BTW. our trainers were highly motivated (to kick our behinds) during basic training. There were hardly any free minutes and the drill went on from 6:30 am till 4:30 pm (and sometimes beyond that). After some months we had one big exercise for two weeks at a "Gefechtsübungszentrum" (battle training centre) were the combat units practised fighting together with tanks and AAA units against the local units of the battle training centre.
Before that they practised stuff on a smaller scale on our own training grounds.
It isn't the Bundeswehr's fault nor the drafts fault. It's a financial problem. Less money + more misisons in foreign countries = no material for doing anything with draftees.
We have no idea what will be in 20 years, just because we don't need a big army right now (and a draft with it's reservists is the only way to guarantee to have one quickly when needed) it doesn't mean we won't need it in the future.
This is typical manager thinking: Success for the short term no matter the consequences for the long term.
I agree that the system needs to become more just (a lot of possible draftees don't get drafted while others get their behinds kicked in basic training) and that more money needs to be spend to do proper things with the draftees (hey, how many billions did we have left for Greece?). But I wouldn't let it go altogether.

BTW. you can nicely see how well informed the writer of the article is. There are no gas-masks at the Bundeswehr. They are called ABC-Schutzmasken (NBC [Nuclear, Biological, Chemical]-Protection Masks) and steel helmets have long been replaced with Kevlar.
So this wasn't written by someone who knows something about it.

[XabbaRus]

Have none of the journalists stopped to think that they are making these videos in their spare time and they are set up.

Jeez I hate journalists sometimes.

[Weiss Pinguin]

Originally Posted by XabbaRus

Have none of the journalists stopped to think that they are making these videos in their spare time and they are set up.

Jeez I hate journalists sometimes.

God forbid they get their hands on some of the videos floating around of US troopers in their spare time, who knows what they might do with that

[krashkart]

Originally Posted by Weiss Pinguin

God forbid they get their hands on some of the videos floating around of US troopers in their spare time, who knows what they might do with that

What could a journalist possibly find wrong with what our troopers do? It's not like there's anything wrong with...

Throwing expired camel spiders at each other.




Trying to mimic camel spiders.




Playing the X-Games.





Ahhh. The sweet sight of our tax dollars hard at work. (At least somebody got it right)



And remember, it's only fun until somebody gets hurt.

UnderseaLcpl,

I agree with you a professional crew of a military would have many benefits including: higher motivation then enlisted, improved legal situation (not having to force people into difficult tasks because obviously volunteer troops will volunteer for anything, right? Right?!), an overall improved unit cohesion, professionality and effectiveness due to higher motivation/morale/etc., the ability to gel together well with high tech gizmo-type weaponsystems that enlisted men cannot fathom, less fatties, etc.

So a lot of things in favour of an all pro military. However, at least here where still around ~70 % of men still goes to the military service (the figures are falling though due to the x-boxification of the western youth) the military says there are other benefits that outweigh the pros of an all pro military.

The military says that the military service is supposed to 'weld' the people together, it creates a kind of national ethos among the men, it's 'the last chance' for the society to meddle with the men of certain age group and give them vaccinations etc. (as if this couldn't be done any other way) and that it's supposedly cheaper. Now how exactly the price is calculated by the military is a bit unclear to me because for some reason they don't calculate the costs from time lost from the young men's lives in studying and/or work. There is also the equlity between sexes issue with women being able to choose freely whether or not to go to the military service or not.

So overall, I would be in favour of an all pro military for us but with incentives for, say, young men to complete a short military service so they could be used as military reserve if needed.

I once ran into German conscientious objectors who were performing their military service volunteering abroad? I don't know if I understood them correctly, I wonder if anyone knows more about this.

Edit. They weren't draft dodgers.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Far be it form me to say I know best about German domestic policy, but I disagree with Schroeder. If the state of the US military is any indication, more funding does not lead to less screwing around.

Like Schroeder, I see as being one of the soldier. Soldiers in the US are typically drawn from the ranks of those who have nowhere else to go, though there is a nice fraction that is in the service because they want to be in the service. The pay is lousy, and there really isn't much in the way of incentive for the common soldier i.e. little chance for meaningful advancement. It doesn't matter if you're the best soldier in your grade or not, you can't be promoted simply because of ability except in rare circumstances (due to billets for ranks and MOS) The whole system is entirely too stratified, IMO.

However, I also see the problem as being one that conscription policy has created. The US has an all-volunteer force, so presumably the recruits have at least some desire to perform to start with. Not so with a conscription system, unless a wave of nationalist euphoria is sweeping Germany (not meant as a Nazi jab).

I won't bother bringing up privatizing part of the military as a solution since it is such an apparently unpopular idea, but I think a move from conscription to an all-volunteer force would be good for the Bundeswehr. It would cut down on unecessary troops and reduce the number of people who don't want to serve in the first place, leading to a general increase in morale and performance, even if still hamstrung by rigid military structure (not familiar with Bundeswehr organizational structure)

Originally Posted by Schroeder

So this wasn't written by someone who knows something about it.

Perhaps not, but does the author really need to know what the helmets are made of or what the proper term for NBC equipment is? Screwing around is screwing around. We used to play tag with the guy was "it" in full MOPP gear. Call it a hazmat suit if you want but we're still playing tag.

More worrisome is the insidious screwing around that I'm sure goes on. BSing officers, purposely pencil-frakking maintenance and inventory to get it overwith, walking around with clipboards just to look busy, etc.. If the Bundeswehr has time for sleeping-bag races, I can't imagine the level of unseen crap that is going on.

One last thing I will mention is this:

Less money + more misisons in foreign countries = no material for doing anything with draftees.

Presumably, the draftees are already being payed and already have equipment, so I'm sure there is plenty that they could be doing. The Marine Corps is terribly underfunded and they still have a massive ongoing effort to place the entire Mojave desert into little burlap bags, apparently. You just have to be careful with make-work like that. Troops can smell busywork a mile away, and it is bad for morale. If nothing else, they could be training, training, training, and when they get done they can go train some more. There is absolutely no reason why every conscript in the Bundeswehr should not be a crack shot(even if they don't have ammunition), an expert on his specialty, and a capable squad leader.

That's my opinion, anyway.

[Schroeder]

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

Like Schroeder, I see as being one of the soldier. Soldiers in the US are typically drawn from the ranks of those who have nowhere else to go, though there is a nice fraction that is in the service because they want to be in the service. The pay is lousy, and there really isn't much in the way of incentive for the common soldier i.e. little chance for meaningful advancement. It doesn't matter if you're the best soldier in your grade or not, you can't be promoted simply because of ability except in rare circumstances (due to billets for ranks and MOS) The whole system is entirely too stratified, IMO.

However, I also see the problem as being one that conscription policy has created. The US has an all-volunteer force, so presumably the recruits have at least some desire to perform to start with.

Yep, as you said , a lot have no where else to go. From what I've heard even criminals are now taken in the US army because you can't fill your ranks with other volunteers (I'm not sure whether that is true, but I believe I've read something about that a couple of years back). Those are exactly not the people I want in the armed forces.

Not so with a conscription system, unless a wave of nationalist euphoria is sweeping Germany (not meant as a Nazi jab).

See above. In Germany you don't have to join the military if you don't want to. You can do an alternative civil service. So everyone who joins the armed forces could choose and chose the military.

but I think a move from conscription to an all-volunteer force would be good for the Bundeswehr.

From what I hear (boy, a lot of hearing but no real sources) all armies that went away from conscription have issues to fill their ranks, right? Even with conscription the Bundeswehr is short on GOOD people who want to become professional soldiers. A lot of the professional ones decided to become professionals during their draft time. Remove the draft and you remove also those people who would otherwise not have gotten into contact with the armed forces. You can guess how many good people they will get then.

It would cut down on unecessary troops and reduce the number of people who don't want to serve in the first place, leading to a general increase in morale and performance, even if still hamstrung by rigid military structure (not familiar with Bundeswehr organizational structure)

See above.

Perhaps not, but does the author really need to know what the helmets are made of or what the proper term for NBC equipment is? Screwing around is screwing around. We used to play tag with the guy was "it" in full MOPP gear. Call it a hazmat suit if you want but we're still playing tag.

No, but it indicates that the author is not an insider and so one should take everything he writes with a grain of salt.

If the Bundeswehr has time for sleeping-bag races, I can't imagine the level of unseen crap that is going on.

Oh come on, even my grandfather told me about some stupid things they have done when he was a soldier during WWII. Soldiers do stupid things in their spare time.

Presumably, the draftees are already being payed and already have equipment, so I'm sure there is plenty that they could be doing.

Yes, they have their personal equipment. But your rifle has to last for roughly 35-40 years before it gets replaced.
We were lucky to be the first ones getting G36 rifles. The guys before us had 35 years old G3s. You see, if your stuff has to last longer than a nightmare of Bill Clinton in your bed, then you are reluctant to send your troops out for extra exercising (our Marder IFV are about 35 years old by now too btw. They will get replaced in a few years though...if anything works according to plan....which actually said that they should have been replaced two years ago...).

If nothing else, they could be training, training, training, and when they get done they can go train some more. There is absolutely no reason why every conscript in the Bundeswehr should not be a crack shot(even if they don't have ammunition), an expert on his specialty, and a capable squad leader.

I'm afraid I don't know what a crack shot is but you can forget about becoming a squad leader in 9 months in the Bundeswehr. An expert in his speciality? How do you become an expert in aiming a mortar if you can't fire the damn thing a few times? How do you become an expert in driving an IFV if you don't get fuel for driving it frequently? Etc.

Physical fitness is the only thing I can see them getting for free (even the Bundeswehr can afford new sport shoes).

[UnderseaLcpl]

Originally Posted by Schroeder

Yep, as you said , a lot have no where else to go. From what I've heard even criminals are now taken in the US army because you can't fill your ranks with other volunteers (I'm not sure whether that is true, but I believe I've read something about that a couple of years back). Those are exactly not the people I want in the armed forces.

Well you have to read into it a little more than that. The standards in the US military are low so they can fill the ranks (not much of a problem, aside from a few occassions). If the standards, training, and pay were higher, they'd attract better volunteers. This is one of the reasons I so heavily favor private involvement in the military. I don't care which contractor you're talking about, they all have the best gear, training, pay, and people.

See above. In Germany you don't have to join the military if you don't want to. You can do an alternative civil service. So everyone who joins the armed forces could choose and chose the military.

Doesn't seem like much of a choice to me. How well does the civil service do? Do they have the same problems? Are they efficient? My guess would be no, but I'd like to find out.

Even with conscription the Bundeswehr is short on GOOD people who want to become professional soldiers. A lot of the professional ones decided to become professionals during their draft time. Remove the draft and you remove also those people who would otherwise not have gotten into contact with the armed forces. You can guess how many good people they will get then.

Or you can look at it from the opposite way and say that if Germany had a more professional fighting force they would attract more non-conscripts. Few things motivate people like money, even Germans. Throw in a dash of Prussian pride in military excellence and you're well on your way to having an elite fighting force.

That's something I forgot to mention. There's a little secret I will tell you Y'know what makes the US Marines so reknowned as a fighting force? It isn't gear or funding or the recruits we get, it's pride. Soldiers who are proud of their service will train, fight, and work many times harder than any otherwise equivalent conscript.

I hope you and Sky don't mind me mentioning it, but I think that this irrational sense of permanent guilt that Germany feels over WW2 has undermined what should be a very proud military tradition. The Wehrmacht was so formidable in WW2 that the US continues to use their tactics and even their gear to this day. Even the new marpat cammies and helmets make us look like Waffen-SS. We don't have a problem with it, why do you?

No, but it indicates that the author is not an insider and so one should take everything he writes with a grain of salt.

Well,I'm an insider and I can totally see this kind of ridiculous behavior going on.

Oh come on, even my grandfather told me about some stupid things they have done when he was a soldier during WWII. Soldiers do stupid things in their spare time.

Which is fine, until they start doing stupid things with important things. That's what I'm talking about. If discipline is lax enough that these kinds of silly games go on, what kind of maintenance is the gear getting? Is everything accounted for? Do we even know what gear we have and where it is?

Yes, they have their personal equipment. But your rifle has to last for roughly 35-40 years before it gets replaced.

And? My old unit still has radios that are fifty years old and they still work.
I've been issued M16's with handguards that fall off and loose magazine catches. My combat M249 had a loose sear pin that almost caused me to shoot my foot off! None of those problems were an excuse for failure. If your weapon is broken, you fix it. If you can't fix it, you figure out something else. It's a mess, but it can't stand in the way of mission accomplishment.

I'm afraid I don't know what a crack shot is

Elite shooter. Expert rifleman. Olympic-class marksman. "Crack" in that context in English means "elite of the elite"

is but you can forget about becoming a squad leader in 9 months in the Bundeswehr.

Stratification problem?

An expert in his speciality? How do you become an expert in aiming a mortar if you can't fire the damn thing a few times? How do you become an expert in driving an IFV if you don't get fuel for driving it frequently? Etc.

Good troops will find a way. You can become an expert rifleman by practicing with a weapon that has no bullets; tape a laser-pointer to the end of the muzzle and snap-in (dry-fire). No armored cars to drive? Drive a regular car with simulated vision slits. No hand grenades? Take turns using a spent flashbang grenade, or even a rock. No bullets for squad exercises? Yell "BANG" (the Corps loves doing that one)

Physical fitness is the only thing I can see them getting for free (even the Bundeswehr can afford new sport shoes).

They have sport shoes? Why don't they run in their boots!? Then they'll have some money for bullets.


You don't get what you pay for in the military, you get what you invest in. Give me a squad of Bundeswehr conscripts and I'll have them bleeding combat excellence in a month. There is no reason why any man eligible for service should be honing his skills in sleeping bag races unless we're training to assault and consolidate a position from a sleeping bag for some unfathomable reason.

[Schroeder]

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

Doesn't seem like much of a choice to me. How well does the civil service do? Do they have the same problems? Are they efficient? My guess would be no, but I'd like to find out.

Actually as far as I know it is. I believe about 50% or more of all possible conscripts choose civil service.

Or you can look at it from the opposite way and say that if Germany had a more professional fighting force they would attract more non-conscripts. Few things motivate people like money, even Germans. Throw in a dash of Prussian pride in military excellence and you're well on your way to having an elite fighting force.

I don't know whether we would get enough people like that. We would definitely need higher wages. We're suffering a lack of pilots and doctors right now.

I hope you and Sky don't mind me mentioning it, but I think that this irrational sense of permanent guilt that Germany feels over WW2 has undermined what should be a very proud military tradition. The Wehrmacht was so formidable in WW2 that the US continues to use their tactics and even their gear to this day. Even the new marpat cammies and helmets make us look like Waffen-SS. We don't have a problem with it, why do you?

While this is still some issue, I don't think it still plays a major part in today's
Bundeswehr.

Which is fine, until they start doing stupid things with important things. That's what I'm talking about. If discipline is lax enough that these kinds of silly games go on, what kind of maintenance is the gear getting?

The NCOs can't have there eyers everywhere. If people do that **** after 16:30 then most soldiers are off duty and sometimes not even to be found inside the barracks (in Germany the families of the military staff does not live inside the barracks, so most soldiers go home to their families outside the barracks after their shift is done). So there are places and times where no one will see such BS happen.

Is everything accounted for? Do we even know what gear we have and where it is?

On your final day you have to give back all the stuff you were issued (well most of it, you can keep your boots, shoes and t-shirts). If it'S damaged you're in trouble.

And? My old unit still has radios that are fifty years old and they still work.
I've been issued M16's with handguards that fall off and loose magazine catches. My combat M249 had a loose sear pin that almost caused me to shoot my foot off! None of those problems were an excuse for failure.

It's an excuse for not letting people out with it here. If people get injured because of faulty equipment then all (leagl) hell will break loose.

Elite shooter. Expert rifleman. Olympic-class marksman. "Crack" in that context in English means "elite of the elite"

Thanks for explaining that.
I already thought it would be something like that. i still don't see how anyone can become a crack shot without using the rifle frequently on the firing range.

Stratification problem?

I'm not entirely sure what you mean with that.
You simply don't get any training for being a squad leader if you only serve 9 (or nowadays 6) months.

You can become an expert rifleman by practicing with a weapon that has no bullets; tape a laser-pointer to the end of the muzzle and snap-in (dry-fire).

We do something like that in exercises when we simulate fights (the system is called AGDUS). However it doesn't teach you calculate wind into your aim, distance etc.

No armored cars to drive? Drive a regular car with simulated vision slits.

Not even non armored cars for you.

No hand grenades? Take turns using a spent flashbang grenade, or even a rock. No bullets for squad exercises? Yell "BANG" (the Corps loves doing that one)

We use exercise hand grenades (or so I'm told as I never used them, no reason to train an office clerk in that stuff) and the laser stuff (though I believe that needs blank cartridges to work properly).

They have sport shoes? Why don't they run in their boots!? Then they'll have some money for bullets.

We have a sport suit (or two I believe) in addition to our normal camo uniforms. The sport suit comes with indoor and outdoor shoes.

[TLAM Strike]

Troops are bored? Simple solution... two letters: P T...

[UnderseaLcpl]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

Troops are bored? Simple solution... two letters: P T...

Two words: Foxtrot Uniform

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Weiss Pinguin

God forbid they get their hands on some of the videos floating around of US troopers in their spare time, who knows what they might do with that

Last time that happened I think they called it "Tailhook"...

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

Two words: Foxtrot Uniform

Touche...