It begins..

[Torvald Von Mansee]

http://www.azfamily.com/video/featur...-91769419.html

[Torvald Von Mansee]

"A representative at U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) returned 3TV’s calls after researching the incident and she said this was standard operating procedure."

It'll be cute when the ACLU does a FOIA request on the data supposedly backing that up and prove it untrue.

[GoldenRivet]

tough.

not illegal?

nothing to hide?

then whats the problem?

I would normally be against this sort of thing, but the states have been fighting violent border crime with BOTH hands tied behind their backs.

My hat is off to Arizona... she took a stand against two things

1. Our failure of a federal government

2. violent border state crimes

[AVGWarhawk]

PHOENIX – A Valley man says he was pulled over Wednesday morning and questioned when he arrived at a weigh station for his commercial vehicle along Val Vista and the 202 freeway.

He was at a weigh station....commerical driver with commercial drivers license. Whats the problem? He was not pulled over for the fun of it. The weigh station is open for business...he is a truck driver. He must enter for inspection.

He tells 3TV, “I don't think it's correct, if I have to take my birth certificate with me all the time.”

He needs to carry a Medical Cert card and drivers license as well as proof of insurance. Why not add a birth certificate as part of paperwork required for driving a commercial vehicle?

Abdon was told he did not have enough paperwork on him when he pulled into a weigh station to have his commercial truck checked. He provided his commercial driver’s license and a social security number but ended up handcuffed.

The arrest does not look warranted to me. Two forms of ID should have been enough. However I do not know the SOP for this....see below:

A representative at U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) returned 3TV’s calls after researching the incident and she said this was standard operating procedure.
The agents needed to verify Abdon was in the country legally and it is not uncommon to ask for someone's birth certificate. She also said this has nothing to do with the proposed bill or racial profiling.

[Turbografx]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

tough.

not illegal?

nothing to hide?

then whats the problem?

The problem is harassment based on racial profiling. The problem is placing the burden of proof on the accused to prove that he is a citizen.

I take it you are a white male like myself?

What if our immigration problem was with Ireland, like in the 19th century. To crack down on this I'll just detain people who I "reasonably suspect" of being illegal Irish immigrants (all whites, red-heads, drunks, people who talk funny) unless they have papers to prove otherwise.
Walking your dog without papers? Tough. Bicycled down to the drugstore without papers? Tough. Out minding you own god-damned business without papers? Tough.

As a lawful citizen, don't you think you should be able to live your life and go about your business without being unreasonably detained because of your physical appearance? I certainly do. I think that kind of **** would get old, fast.

[AVGWarhawk]

The problem is placing the burden of proof on the accused to prove that he is a citizen

The burden of proof is laid at our feet every day. Operate a motor vehicle in the state of MD and it is wise to have your drivers license, proof of insurance, current registration and a copy of the emission certificate. Any of these missing...tough luck. Perhaps a new nationwide law should be having a copy of your birth cert is required. I just add it to my other important paperwork.

[Molon Labe]

I'm confused.

I thought the scandal was all about the new Arizona law.

But these were federal ICE agents. Nothing to do with the new law.

What is the relevance here?

[Torvald Von Mansee]

Originally Posted by Molon Labe

I'm confused.

I thought the scandal was all about the new Arizona law.

But these were federal ICE agents. Nothing to do with the new law.

What is the relevance here?

...

Trig, is that you?

[tater]

Showing the CDL would ideally be enough. The problem, of course, is that there are states in the US—like the State next door to Arizona called "New Mexico" that give DLs to illegals!

So the entirely legit requirement to see a DL should be proof of citizenship, but it's NOT. Heck, voter registration uses the DL.

So force everyone to go get a new DL with their birth certificate, passport, etc, then the DL can be used as proper ID as it should be. PLaces like here in NM should get no federal money if they allow illegal aliens to get a DL in the first place.

[AVGWarhawk]

Exacty tater. There needs to be a countrywide law that these items need to be carried with you. It is no different than the DL or SS card.

[Turbografx]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

The burden of proof is laid at our feet every day. Operate a motor vehicle in the state of MD and it is wise to have your drivers license, proof of insurance, current registration and a copy of the emission certificate. Any of these missing...tough luck. Perhaps a new nationwide law should be having a copy of your birth cert is required. I just add it to my other important paperwork.

The problem is not that you have to have an ID or even that you must have it with you and present it. Rather it is with what conditions are entailed by "reasonable suspicion".

In most things this is clear cut and impartial:

"Reasonable suspicion" of drunk driving would be something like swerving erratically, driving extremely fast or slow, crashing into a lamp-post. I.e. visibly breaking the law/endangering others.

"Reasonable suspicion" of professional mal-practice would include a patient dying from a anesthetic overdose, a house burning down from shoddy wiring, selling drinks to under-aged people. I.e. breaking the law/endangering others.

"Reasonable suspicion" of being an illegal immigrant on the other hand is mostly based on your appearance. Being a little too brown or publicly speaking in a language other than English. I.e. not being WASP enough.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Turbografx

The problem is not that you have to have an ID or even that you must have it with you and present it. Rather it is with what conditions are entailed by "reasonable suspicion".

In most things this is clear cut and impartial:

"Reasonable suspicion" of drunk driving would be something like swerving erratically, driving extremely fast or slow, crashing into a lamp-post. I.e. visibly breaking the law/endangering others.

"Reasonable suspicion" of professional mal-practice would include a patient dying from a anesthetic overdose, a house burning down from shoddy wiring, selling drinks to under-aged people. I.e. breaking the law/endangering others.

"Reasonable suspicion" of being an illegal immigrant on the other hand is mostly based on your appearance. Being a little too brown or publicly speaking in a language other than English. I.e. not being WASP enough.

In this particular instance the man held a CDL and is required to stop at a weigh stations. He was operating a commercial vehicle. This was not a random selection. He is supposed to provide his CDL, Medical Card and insurance plus his logs. For me that would have need enough ID. However, if the AZ states that SOP is to ask for a Birth Cert then the officer can ask.

I understand the probably cause is assessed by color or language spoken. Thus the profiling associated with this law.

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by Turbografx

What if our immigration problem was with Ireland, like in the 19th century. To crack down on this I'll just detain people who I "reasonably suspect" of being illegal Irish immigrants (all whites, red-heads, drunks, people who talk funny)

While i see where you are coming from, i offer two valid counter points

1. As far as im aware nobody was detained. you simply have to spend 10 seconds showing a valid proof of citizenship (which as a flight school owner i have to verify everyone's proof if citizenship all the time... so its not any big deal)

2. You say "what if our immigration problem was with ireland"

to that i simply say this...

lets say you are standing in a corner shop one day, and a cop walks in and asks you to put your hands on the counter. He pats you down, checks your ID, radios it in to HQ and in the mean time you dont have any idea what the heck is going on. After about a 10 minute process the cop says

"sorry about that sir, we are trying to aprehend a dangerous suspect in the area, and you match the discription we were given, have a nice day."

ok cool... no big deal IMHO

same difference with the illegal immigrant document check.

if you ask me the United States has become far too sensitive with this whole "profiling" nonsense.

[Turbografx]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

ok cool... no big deal IMHO

Unless you don't have any ID on you, in which case you're looking at least an hour of your time. (taken down-town while the appropriate research/paperwork is fetched) For example, I only started driving last year, for 4 years of my adult life I no had legal, portable ID. If someone had asked for my ID at random the best I could have done was a library/credit card.

Also, maybe its not a big deal as far as hassle or time taken is concerned but knowing you were pulled aside based entirely on your skin color has got to get annoying after awhile. You would know it to be inescapable reality for you while others never even get a second-thought. It might be enough to make me undergo the Jackson bleach bath treatment.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Turbografx

Unless you don't have any ID on you, in which case you're looking at least an hour of your time. (taken down-town while the appropriate research/paperwork is fetched) For example, I only started driving last year, for 4 years of my adult life I had legal, portable ID. If someone had asked for my ID at random the best I could have done was a library/credit card.

The department of motor vehicle can provide a legal ID card with photo. This is not a drivers license, just a legal ID with photo. Credible evidence of who you are no matter where you go in the US.