'BEARING' help needed please

flag4 · 04-05-10, 06:42 AM

hi hunters

after many years in the 'manual tdc wilderness' i think i am finally getting it through in to my head...dont know how this is happening, but it seems to be!

yet i have a question about bearing; have been on the torp tutorial and had some good success. but sometimes when i set up the bearing on a moving ship - the torp arrives at the right point but the ship is further along?

have entered a.o.b, ship speed, range etc yet it doesnt seem to hit - its as though i have to guesstimate the arrival point on 'bearing' so for example, if the bearing reads 25 i have to guess it will 30 when the ship gets there. is this right or am i missing something?

many thanks
flag

sergei · 04-05-10, 07:26 AM

If you have your solution dead on, then the torpedoes should hit where you aim them.

The fact that you are missing aft suggests to me that either your speed estimate is slightly off, or the tube door hasn't been opened.

Paul Riley · 04-05-10, 07:41 AM

I have found the speed to be absolutely critical when it comes to getting your solutions right,make an error of just 1 knot and the torpedo could pass the ship fore or aft quite harmlessly,and the problem is even more confounded in rough seas where a ship's speed changes sometimes quite dramatically,in which case you will need to make an average based on your plot markings and/or fixed line observations.A zero degree bow on shot would be needed where speed is a problem,allowing the torpedo to come out straight with no angle.

flag4 · 04-05-10, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Riley

I have found the speed to be absolutely critical when it comes to getting your solutions right,make an error of just 1 knot and the torpedo could pass the ship fore or aft quite harmlessly,and the problem is even more confounded in rough seas where a ship's speed changes sometimes quite dramatically,in which case you will need to make an average based on your plot markings and/or fixed line observations.A zero degree bow on shot would be needed where speed is a problem,allowing the torpedo to come out straight with no angle.

thanks Paul

...so a shot that has this deficite in speed from launch can have this affect, the fact that it has to turn means that it loses speed by default?

i have just done another round of shooting and the 0 speed is ok, but the moving targets are difficult: one went aft the other ahead by a hairs breadth!!

i notice the bearing does change a little as the ship is moving along its course. does this ahave an affect: i get the feeling i am doing something evr-so-slightly wrong ie; do i have to have attack periscope locked onto target as i am updating the tdc?

i want to crack this!! it has been years of trying but nothing - NOW SUDDENLY pennies ar dropping into place

god knows why? i woke up this morning and the TDC thing was in my head and i KNEW i could do it or at least begin to do it.

i understand that when the ship sees the coming torp and speeds up then its a no-hoper unless its that close. but BEARING seems very important along with AOB, and yet RANGE not so?

any more explanations from those in the know would be great - thank you!!

Paul Riley · 04-05-10, 09:54 AM

flag4,

I'll give you a basic rundown of how 'I' perform a manual targeting attack,and am sure lots of others will use and support this.

1 - make sure the manual/auto switch on the TDC is set to green,or manual
2 - all attack data will be needed at this point,range,speed,for angled shots.Zero speed and bearing zero will allow the torpedo to come out straight
3- once you have all data set your torpedos accordingly
4 - now the part you may be having problems with,and its easier than you thought.Make sure the scope is unlocked at this point.If for example you are on the right side of your target and you are at 90 degrees travelling on its course then set the AOB dial to 90 degrees starboard (green).As you read on more you will quickly realise that you dont even need to worry about AOB or bearing as the TDC will update it for you.
If you are on the left side at 90 degrees set it to 90 degrees port (red)
5 - set the bearing dial to 90 or 270 respectively
6 IMPORTANT - now set the TDC switch to auto.This allows the TDC to track your target and update the torpedo release angle for you.
7 - NOW lock your scope to your target.At this point the TDC is primed to attack the target and if released at this point it will be aiming at the centre of the ship,or amidships.
8 - CHOOSING YOUR OWN PARTS TO HIT- If you want to decide where you want to hit a ship simply unlock the scope and fire when the crosshair lies over the section you want to hit,or as I do,set the crosshair at a predefined angle such as 340 or 20 degrees and fire when the ship's targeted area passes through your desired bearing.You also need to make sure you are well ahead of the target in order to have such freedom with your attacks,allowing you to conduct attacks on your terms,and also WHEN you attack,such as waiting until nightfall.At longer ranges you would also want to increase the fire angle to say,300 degrees,because 340 or 20 would be too late and the torpedo would probably bounce off due to the steep angle as it moves further away.
9- FIRING A SALVO - if you want to fire a salvo at specific points on a ship this also is fairly easy to set up.First,line the crosshair on the first section you want to hit,say under the funnel,then if you wanted to target the bow or the foremast/s again line up the crosshair on that section and count the difference in degrees between each section.So if the funnel was at bearing 330,and the foremast at 335 you would set a spread of 5 degrees.Torpedo 1 would travel down the centre towards the funnel,and torpedo 2 would travel at 5 degrees away from torp 1 towards the formast.

That is really all there is to manual targeting,just make sure all your settings are true,the longer you take observations the better,ideally at LEAST 30 mins,then lock the TDC,then lock the scope to the target,and fire away! DONT FORGET TO OPEN THE TUBE/S MINUTES BEFORE FIRING!

Hope this makes things easier for you,it certainly is the way I do it,and have many successes,unless of course you get a dud or premature explosion.

flag4 · 04-05-10, 01:05 PM

thanks for your help Paul and irish,

i have printed off the info and will keep it with me untill it sinks in

much appreciated

irish1958 · 04-05-10, 09:47 AM

Paul is correct. 1 knot is 1852 meters. If your torpedo takes one minute to reach the target. you will be off by 300 meters, so closer is better.
The further away the target the more you need to fire a spread to hope for a hit.
Bearing accuracy is also important, but not so much. Set on fast (i.e. 45 Knots), the torpedo will travel about 1400 meters is one minute; so each degree of relative bearing will be about 30 meters.
If your target speed and bearing are accurate, range doesn't make much difference as the relative ratio of target speed to torpedo speed will be the same. This is hard to believe, but it is true.
Of course, wind speed, ocean current speed, mechanical problems affecting torpedo speed, water temperature, depth setting on the torpedo, sub speed, torpedo delay from the time the torpedo is fired to when it actually enters the water, delay due to the time it takes the torpedo to accelerate to 45 knots, accuracy of your estimate of the target's course, and a host of other factors also are important.
How torpedo can hit anything is a mystery to me.

I really don't feel too bad when I miss a target, especially one traveling fast.

04-05-10, 06:42 AM	#1
flag4 Watch Officer Join Date: May 2007 Location: as far away as possible Posts: 1,625 Downloads: 147 Uploads: 0	'BEARING' help needed please hi hunters after many years in the 'manual tdc wilderness' i think i am finally getting it through in to my head...dont know how this is happening, but it seems to be! yet i have a question about bearing; have been on the torp tutorial and had some good success. but sometimes when i set up the bearing on a moving ship - the torp arrives at the right point but the ship is further along? have entered a.o.b, ship speed, range etc yet it doesnt seem to hit - its as though i have to guesstimate the arrival point on 'bearing' so for example, if the bearing reads 25 i have to guess it will 30 when the ship gets there. is this right or am i missing something? many thanks flag __________________ [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] ' We are here on Earth to fart around. Don't let anybody tell you any different.' Kurt Vonnegut

04-05-10, 07:41 AM	#3
Paul Riley Ocean Warrior Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Sheffield, England Posts: 2,679 Downloads: 165 Uploads: 0	I have found the speed to be absolutely critical when it comes to getting your solutions right,make an error of just 1 knot and the torpedo could pass the ship fore or aft quite harmlessly,and the problem is even more confounded in rough seas where a ship's speed changes sometimes quite dramatically,in which case you will need to make an average based on your plot markings and/or fixed line observations.A zero degree bow on shot would be needed where speed is a problem,allowing the torpedo to come out straight with no angle. __________________ Best Patrol: 10 merchants + HMS Nelson for 68.056 Tonnes

04-05-10, 09:54 AM	#5
Paul Riley Ocean Warrior Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Sheffield, England Posts: 2,679 Downloads: 165 Uploads: 0	Brief rundown of manual targeting flag4, I'll give you a basic rundown of how 'I' perform a manual targeting attack,and am sure lots of others will use and support this. 1 - make sure the manual/auto switch on the TDC is set to green,or manual 2 - all attack data will be needed at this point,range,speed,for angled shots.Zero speed and bearing zero will allow the torpedo to come out straight 3- once you have all data set your torpedos accordingly 4 - now the part you may be having problems with,and its easier than you thought.Make sure the scope is unlocked at this point.If for example you are on the right side of your target and you are at 90 degrees travelling on its course then set the AOB dial to 90 degrees starboard (green).As you read on more you will quickly realise that you dont even need to worry about AOB or bearing as the TDC will update it for you. If you are on the left side at 90 degrees set it to 90 degrees port (red) 5 - set the bearing dial to 90 or 270 respectively 6 IMPORTANT - now set the TDC switch to auto.This allows the TDC to track your target and update the torpedo release angle for you. 7 - NOW lock your scope to your target.At this point the TDC is primed to attack the target and if released at this point it will be aiming at the centre of the ship,or amidships. 8 - CHOOSING YOUR OWN PARTS TO HIT- If you want to decide where you want to hit a ship simply unlock the scope and fire when the crosshair lies over the section you want to hit,or as I do,set the crosshair at a predefined angle such as 340 or 20 degrees and fire when the ship's targeted area passes through your desired bearing.You also need to make sure you are well ahead of the target in order to have such freedom with your attacks,allowing you to conduct attacks on your terms,and also WHEN you attack,such as waiting until nightfall.At longer ranges you would also want to increase the fire angle to say,300 degrees,because 340 or 20 would be too late and the torpedo would probably bounce off due to the steep angle as it moves further away. 9- FIRING A SALVO - if you want to fire a salvo at specific points on a ship this also is fairly easy to set up.First,line the crosshair on the first section you want to hit,say under the funnel,then if you wanted to target the bow or the foremast/s again line up the crosshair on that section and count the difference in degrees between each section.So if the funnel was at bearing 330,and the foremast at 335 you would set a spread of 5 degrees.Torpedo 1 would travel down the centre towards the funnel,and torpedo 2 would travel at 5 degrees away from torp 1 towards the formast. That is really all there is to manual targeting,just make sure all your settings are true,the longer you take observations the better,ideally at LEAST 30 mins,then lock the TDC,then lock the scope to the target,and fire away! DONT FORGET TO OPEN THE TUBE/S MINUTES BEFORE FIRING! Hope this makes things easier for you,it certainly is the way I do it,and have many successes,unless of course you get a dud or premature explosion. __________________ Best Patrol: 10 merchants + HMS Nelson for 68.056 Tonnes Last edited by Paul Riley; 04-06-10 at 02:55 AM.

04-05-10, 01:05 PM	#6
flag4 Watch Officer Join Date: May 2007 Location: as far away as possible Posts: 1,625 Downloads: 147 Uploads: 0	thanks for your help Paul and irish, i have printed off the info and will keep it with me untill it sinks in much appreciated __________________ [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] ' We are here on Earth to fart around. Don't let anybody tell you any different.' Kurt Vonnegut

04-05-10, 09:47 AM	#7
irish1958 Ocean Warrior Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Carmel, Indiana Posts: 3,250 Downloads: 320 Uploads: 11	Torpedo Accuracy Paul is correct. 1 knot is 1852 meters. If your torpedo takes one minute to reach the target. you will be off by 300 meters, so closer is better. The further away the target the more you need to fire a spread to hope for a hit. Bearing accuracy is also important, but not so much. Set on fast (i.e. 45 Knots), the torpedo will travel about 1400 meters is one minute; so each degree of relative bearing will be about 30 meters. If your target speed and bearing are accurate, range doesn't make much difference as the relative ratio of target speed to torpedo speed will be the same. This is hard to believe, but it is true. Of course, wind speed, ocean current speed, mechanical problems affecting torpedo speed, water temperature, depth setting on the torpedo, sub speed, torpedo delay from the time the torpedo is fired to when it actually enters the water, delay due to the time it takes the torpedo to accelerate to 45 knots, accuracy of your estimate of the target's course, and a host of other factors also are important. How torpedo can hit anything is a mystery to me. I really don't feel too bad when I miss a target, especially one traveling fast. __________________ Irish1958

04-05-10, 07:26 AM	#2
sergei Sea Lord Join Date: May 2008 Location: London UK Posts: 1,788 Downloads: 405 Uploads: 29	If you have your solution dead on, then the torpedoes should hit where you aim them. The fact that you are missing aft suggests to me that either your speed estimate is slightly off, or the tube door hasn't been opened.